uneven development

dfoo · Apr 6, 2009

I've noticed some of my negatives recently have a bit of uneven development along the sprocket lines. That is there are vertical streaks lining up when the sprocket holes in the file rebate (135 of course). What is causing this? I generally develop TX400 w/ XTOL 1+1 for 9 minutes in AP tanks (Patterson clones). I agitate continuously at the start for 30 seconds, and then 5s at the top and the bottom of the minute. I do 5 inversions for each agitation. Am I agitating too vigorously? I attach a link to an image. This is some very badly stored TMAX 100 that I got in a bulk film loader when I bought a used enlarger. I suspect he had the film stored in the basement for 10 years or something. I imagine this is what caused the cracks and the crap in the top left corner of the film too!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mnewhook/3414982761/

keithwms · Apr 6, 2009

Are you sure it's a dev issue and not some light-seal issue with the camera itself? Or the canister?

dfoo · Apr 6, 2009

Its a good question... I can't say I've had these uneven development problems before (or at least I haven't noticed them!). I've been using this agitation scheme for 3 years now. It definitely isn't the canister, it can only be the camera. The guilty camera is a Leica M4-p. You can see a similar issue in this shot which was a different roll of film (TX135), developed in a different tank. I bracketed this shot (this shot was 12s, and the first was 4s), and if you quickly flip between the first and the second the uneven development is quite obvious.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mnewhook/3417637153/

edit: After thinking a bit more, I doubt it is the camera. If it was a light seal issue why would the leaks line up with the rebate? (Although in the train pic above, I don't think they do). In addition, the train shot was at night so it isn't like there was bright lights around to leak into the camera.

Anscojohn · Apr 6, 2009

It's looks like too vigorous an agitation technique; the developer is surging through the sprocket holes.

srs5694 · Apr 6, 2009

It's almost certainly an agitation issue. Whether it's too much or too little I'm not sure, though -- I've seen reports of similar problems on the Web where the ultimate resolution went either way. I don't believe I've ever seen this particular problem in my own negatives, and my agitation technique sounds exactly like yours -- but maybe you're doing it more (or less) violently than me.

Carter john · Apr 7, 2009

I don't know, but five inversions in five seconds sounds like (as the kids would say) fast. It takes me ten seconds for three inversions. And maybe that Tmax100 has stuck together and those are marks from separation. ????

Christopher Walrath · Apr 7, 2009

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/4.6.0.167 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102 UP.Link/6.3.0.0.0)

Yeah, I only invert twice every 30 after the initial agitation. Five sounds kinda like overkill.

BobNewYork · Apr 7, 2009

Looks like too vigorous agitation to me. Make a lot of martinis do you dfoo?

Bob H

dfoo · Apr 7, 2009

Carter john said:
I don't know, but five inversions in five seconds sounds like (as the kids would say) fast. It takes me ten seconds for three inversions. And maybe that Tmax100 has stuck together and those are marks from separation. ????

Stuck together? Where? I'm using plastic reels, so it cannot be on the reel itself. I'm pretty sure that the film is trash. I've never had problems like that before (cracks in the emulsion, and all those weird splotches on the film itself).

Anscojohn · Apr 7, 2009

dfoo said:
Stuck together? Where? I'm using plastic reels, so it cannot be on the reel itself. I'm pretty sure that the film is trash. I've never had problems like that before (cracks in the emulsion, and all those weird splotches on the film itself).

******
Right. The film is not stuck together. That would look completely different.
I advise agitation with SS so when turning over the tank, the reels make a very like clic--about half the metallic sound of opening a can of soda pop. I don't know how the sound of a plastic reel should be.

Additonally, in addition to the possibility of too active an agitation technque, there is a possibility of the additional problems of too weak a stop bath; and exhausted fixer: both problems allow the area already over developed because of developer surge through the sprocket holes to continue developing--compounding the problem.

dfoo · Apr 7, 2009

I'll tone down the agitation. I used to agitate 5s every minute, but I found that this lead to very uncontrasty negatives (unless the negatives were exposed in very bright conditions).

fschifano · Apr 7, 2009

I don't know. Maybe you're at that point where it can go either way with the agitation. I've seen the same thing when I haven't agitated vigorously enough. I'm also using plastic tanks most of the time and I don't bother to use inversion agitation. The agitation stick works fine for me. Never gives me a problem. I do agitate vigorously with that stick though, going through about 7 completeback and forth cycles in about 5 seconds. Things get mixed up in there like a top loading washing machine.

George Collier · Apr 7, 2009

It may not be the frequency, or even the vigorousness of the agitation, but the direction of it. Most recommendations I've seen over the years are to twist or spiral the tank as you invert, in both the directions, to avoid direct surging perpendicular to the film length, as John points out. I had surge like your first attachment a few times years ago (in the 70s), and started to do the twisty spirally thing, and I never had it again.

srs5694 · Apr 7, 2009

FWIW, I just checked my Kodak color darkroom data guide book, and their recommendation for agitation is one inversion per second for 30 seconds, then the same rate for 2 seconds every 15 seconds. Most B&W sources use 5 seconds every 30 or 10 seconds every 60 after the initial 30 seconds, from memory. The point being that dfoo's reported rate of agitation is not excessive; some of the posters to this thread are using much less or less vigorous agitation than Kodak recommends. That said, dfoo's agitation could still be too violent or otherwise inappropriate (as in George Collier's suggestion).

Carter john · Apr 9, 2009

dfoo said:
Stuck together? Where? I'm using plastic reels, so it cannot be on the reel itself. I'm pretty sure that the film is trash. I've never had problems like that before (cracks in the emulsion, and all those weird splotches on the film itself).

I thought it would be obvious that I was talking about the film getting stuck together while it was in the bulk film form for all those years.

dfoo · Apr 9, 2009

Ahha... that's possible. Thanks for the clarification.

I developed some film yesterday, and used 2 inversions every 30 seconds. I still found some uneven development on a couple of frames, but it was better.

mike c · Apr 9, 2009

those marks look like the guy who loaded the film on the reel had just finished off a couple of peaces of greasy pizza. Looks like finger prints.

Carter john · Apr 9, 2009

Was it Tmax100 (some film yesterday) from the bulk? I'm certainly not the expert that some of these guys/gals on APUG are, but I have never had a problem with either Rodinal 1+50 or HC-110h with agitation and uneven development (and I'm sure that Xtol wouldn't either). I hope you find answer, but I'm inclined to agree with you the bulk is trash. Or you could throw in a 24 roll every time you develop and see if it gets better deeper into the BULK roll.

dfoo · Apr 9, 2009

Mike, its definitely not finger prints. All the frames from that TMAX have issues.

Carter John, no, I'm not using that film again for anything serious. I'm not concerned about uneven development on that TMAX film, since it clearly has some serious issues. The uneven development I've been having is on TX400, developed in XTOL 1+1 for 9 minutes at 20 degrees.

Carter john · Apr 9, 2009

Sorry, I misunderstood. Maybe, buy a roll of Tmax100 or Tmax 400, and follow the development and agiation recommendations of the maker. I'll bet you won't have uneven development. But be sure to read exactly how to agitate.

mike c · Apr 9, 2009

Well ok, thats the problem I had, now my wife reminds me to wash my hands when I head towards the dark room.BBrrrrrruupp!!!! aahh pizza and pepsi.

dfoo · Apr 9, 2009

I've used both in the past, no issues. In fact, its only recently that I've had inconsistent development issues. I wonder... could it be the chemistry? Its a new batch of XTOL. The only thing I've done differently this time is dissolve the XTOL in 2.5 liters of water, instead of 5 liters. When I go to make the developer I dilute 1+3, instead of 1+1.

dfoo · Apr 11, 2009

I developed 4 more rolls yesterday. I'm still having problems I agitated 2 inverts every 30s, and I was not rough at all. The light vertical streaks in the below image correspond to the gaps between the sprocket holes in the film rebate.

Here is another example, from a totally different roll of film, taken from a totally different camera. This one is really bad! The next picture on the roll was a similar shot, and its not as bad, but still has streaks.

I don't get the streaks from any indoor shots, but likely its because they don't have big areas of uniform lighting like these outdoor shots have.

At this point, I'm lost and don't know what to do!

srs5694 · Apr 11, 2009

Agitation is as much art as science. There are many ways to do it that work and many that don't work, and describing them in words well enough to get reproducible results seems to be very difficult, if not impossible. I have four suggestions:

Try to find a video (or better yet, an in-person demonstration) of somebody else's agitation technique that works. I know such demonstrations exist on YouTube, but I don't have any precise URLs offhand. Perhaps a search there would turn something up, or somebody could post some direct links.
Since decreasing agitation didn't work, try increasing it. I wouldn't go too far, though, and I'd probably increase the vigor more than the total agitation time.
Switch from inversion agitation to rotary agitation (using the rod that sticks out of the top of the AP tank you've got). My impression is that most people prefer inversion agitation, but some people prefer rotary agitation, so perhaps you'll have better luck with the rotary style.
Get a new tank and reels of a different design, such as a stainless steel tank rather than the plastic tank you're using now.. This suggestion is more of a long-shot, but my thought is that a different size and shape to the tank might affect how you agitate it, and/or change the fluid flow patterns within the tank.

dfoo · Apr 11, 2009

I found out the problems are caused by bad fix! Despite by recently making some fix from kodak rapid fix concentrate, evidently the fix was still garbage and has caused issues with my recent set of developed rolls.

uneven development

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