Uneven development with drum developing

Kalvedans · Apr 22, 2021

I've just tried developing 8x10 in drums for the first time. The process itself seems great! I don't have to be in a dark room and I don't have to use as much chemicals. Unfortunately, my results were not entirely perfect. As you can see I get some cloudiness at the top of my negative that I don't understand the cause of.

My process is as follows:
- One sheet of 8x10 Foma 100 negative in an Ilford processing drum.
- 2 min. pre-soak (I always pre-soak Foma film - I tend to get dark spots on the negatives otherwise)
- Developer: Xtol (stock)
- 100 ml for all chemicals (the recommendation on the tank says 75 ml, so I rounded up)
- Rolling the drum continuously on a flat surface, back and forth by hand. I make sure that the drum is rolled at least a full rotation before I roll it back.

Any idea about what I'm doing wrong? Thanks!

Don_ih · Apr 22, 2021

Perhaps you should try with a greater volume of chemicals? And stock developer will be aggressive. You can't rotate while pouring it out, for example, so it stays on a patch of film while quickly draining from the rest.

Sal Santamaura · Apr 22, 2021

Kalvedans said:
...Any idea about what I'm doing wrong?...

Yes. Using a drum designed for developing paper to develop film. Try a Jobo 3004 or 3005 Expert drum, i.e. a tool designed for the job you're attempting.

Kalvedans said:
...Thanks!

You're welcome!

MattKing · Apr 22, 2021

The paper drum can be made to work, even if it isn't as relatively foolproof as the very expensive Jobo options. Those Cibachrome/Ilfochrome drums are really nice to use, if you can work out the difficulties.
What you are seeing may be the result of increased agitation near the ends of the tube, as standing waves in the fluid bounce off the end and come back toward the centre.
Changing the speed and direction and randomness of the agitation is a good idea.
A higher volume of more dilute developer may also help.

Pioneer · Apr 22, 2021

I use Jobo paper drums to develop 8x10 from time to time but I have to increase the amount of all the chemicals including developer, stop, fixer and wash bath for it to come out good. My Jobo 2850 calls for a minimum of 200ml, which will work for prints, but I usually have to double that to 400ml to get film to turn out.

I also use a Unicolor roller motor to turn the drum so it has a pretty constant back and forth rotation. Once in awhile during the devloping, about once a minute though I'm not anal about the time, I pick the drum up off the rollers and set it back down. This changes the rotation a bit so it is not continually the same.

Anyway, I now have the Stearman Press 8x10 daylight tank so I don't use the Jobo drum as often as I used to. This tank has turned out to be a better option for me and provides more consistent development.

FotoD · Apr 22, 2021

I don't think you are doing anything wrong. But since you are getting streaks you need to make some adjustments.

I would increase pre-wet to 5-10m, use Xtol 1+1 (150+150ml) and introduce some irregularity to the motion. Maybe roll the tank over a slightly uneven surface.

And the fill should happen while the tank is rolling, most development happen during the first 30 seconds. A bit tricky if you're hand rolling.

Good luck!

FotoD · Apr 22, 2021

I would like to add; welcome to Photrio! And that you shouldn't get discouraged by the occasional harsh/unhelpful comments you may get. Most of the time you get a lot of good advice here.

There was recently a long thread about why many (women in that case) don't feel like enganging in discussions on this forum. There is an ignore button. Use it, it improves the experience tremendously!

shutterfinger · Apr 22, 2021

I use Jobo tanks. I have developed 8x10 in a Jobo 2800 tank. I use the Jobo manual roller base, rotate finger tip to palm, switching hands, for 1 minute then palm to finger tip for a minute. All that is important is to switch direction so that a near equal number of turns occur in each direction. Jobo tanks have ribs so that the chemicals reach both sides of the film. The 2840 has been adapted to do film, can process 2 8x10 or 1 11x14. The equivalent size film tank says to use 1500ml for 35mm and 120 films and 750 for 4x5. The tanks are 5 1/2 x 14 inches.

MattKing · Apr 22, 2021

FotoD said:
And the fill should happen while the tank is rolling, most development happen during the first 30 seconds.

Tough with a Cibachrome/Ilfochrome tube!
They have an internal cup. You fill the tank standing upright, which fills the internal cup. When you tip the tank on it's side, the cup empties on to one end of the print/sheet of film.

Sirius Glass · Apr 22, 2021

I know Jobo machines with lifts cost money, but the even and consistent development are worth it for large format. I use the 3010 Expert Drum for 4"x5" film sheets on mine.

Pioneer · Apr 23, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
I know Jobo machines with lifts cost money, but the even and consistent development are worth it for large format. I use the 3010 Expert Drum for 4"x5" film sheets on mine.

I love Jobo equipment but when I can buy a 12"x16" tray from Freestyle for about $14 then it just doesn't make sense for me to spend enough to get a machine from Jobo that will handle a large Expert Drum.

I do use a smaller Jobo that handles what I need up to 4x5 film but even that was purchased used. A new Jobo CPE3 with lift runs about $1700 USD here in the US. That buys a lot of film and chemicals.

Mind you, I can spend money as well as the next person, and I certainly have nothing at all against Jobo, I love the equipment I do have and use it constantly, but I tend to get a little careful when I am going to spend that much money.

Maybe I can trade my 11x14 camera on a new Jobo!

Sirius Glass · Apr 23, 2021

Pioneer said:
I love Jobo equipment but when I can buy a 12"x16" tray from Freestyle for about $14 then it just doesn't make sense for me to spend enough to get a machine from Jobo that will handle a large Expert Drum.

I do use a smaller Jobo that handles what I need up to 4x5 film but even that was purchased used. A new Jobo CPE3 with lift runs about $1700 USD here in the US. That buys a lot of film and chemicals.

Mind you, I can spend money as well as the next person, and I certainly have nothing at all against Jobo, I love the equipment I do have and use it constantly, but I tend to get a little careful when I am going to spend that much money.

Maybe I can trade my 11x14 camera on a new Jobo!

I never said buy the machine new. I bought two different used ones and kept the one I liked the best.

Kalvedans · Apr 24, 2021

Thanks for all your helpful comments! I like what Matt said about working out the difficulties - I'll try adjusting the relevant variables and hopefully I will get closer to a decent result.

I made a new attempt using more dilute developer (Xtol 1+1), more liquid (200 ml) and changing up the agitation (flipping over the drum every 30 seconds and then keep rolling). The good news is that the streaks are no loger that concentrated on the top of the image, the bad news is that they are still present and concentrated down along the side of the image.

I'll make a new attempt changing another variable - this time I'll just do one so I have a better idea about what is actually causing the potential change. Any suggestions what I can try next?

NB23 · Apr 24, 2021

Pre-soaking is in general detrimental. Especially for such a long time. A film can soak up 50ml easily, and then it fights against developer absorption.

MattKing · Apr 24, 2021

One further possibility occurs to me - how are you fixing and washing the film?
I ask because if the streaks are due to those parts of the process, they may be somehow related to the fact that the back of the film sticks to the inner wall.
I would suggest completing the fixing step, as well as doing everything afterwards in a tray instead.

Tim Stapp · Apr 26, 2021

In my rotary developing of Foma films in XTOL for which no XTOL times exist, I took the JOBO recommendation of using a 5 minute presoak and developing at hand inversion times.

I suspect that you're not presoaking long enough to fully wet the film prior to pouring in the developer. Try for a 5 minute presoak and report back on the results.

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