Uneven development of film HP5+ and Retro400s with DDX and FX-39II

dirk_van_damme · Aug 2, 2023

Good day,
This is my first post on Photrio. I couldn't find a similar thread so I'm posting it here - I hope this is ok - if not please let me know.
I shoot with Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2 camera - 66 format with Hp5+, Delta100 and sometimes also with Rollei Retro400S and develop with Ilford DDX and FX-39II;
After the development (with times according to producer or digitaltruth website) I encounter the following problem. A dark zone appears across the width of the film - even to the fog+area left and right of the negative. This happens randomly, sometimes a few negatives in a row and sometimes not at all, but only when I use Hp5+ and Retro400s in combination with FX-39II and DDX.
Since these are widely used products, I suspect that the problem is created during the development process.
The camera and film cassettes have been fully tested and checked by DW-Photo and Paepke-fototechnik and no cause has been found.
And since the films and developers are widely used products, I suspect that the problem is created during the development process. My development procedure is completely standardized in regards to these films and developers I always use the same agitation method.
I would like to ask you for your help/opinion what the problem could be and how I can solve it.
thank you very much in advance
with friendly greetings
Dirk

pentaxuser · Aug 2, 2023

If this is occurring randomly by which I understand that on any one film some negatives are fine and others show the problem I do not understand why any part of the process including the developers can be at fault as the process affects all the film in the reel. On the negatives you have shown I can see a line across the bottom negative but he top one looks OK, is that correct?

What the cause might be is a mystery to me but I think it has to be unconnected to the process. It looks as if it is something to do with the camera such as the shutter but the camera is unfamiliar to me so I cannot really say

pentaxuser

otto.f · Aug 2, 2023

pentaxuser said:
If this is occurring randomly by which I understand that on any one film some negatives are fine and others show the problem I do not understand why any part of the process including the developers can be at fault as the process affects all the film in the reel. On the negatives you have shown I can see a line across the bottom negative but he top one looks OK, is that correct?

What the cause might be is a mystery to me but I think it has to be unconnected to the process. It looks as if it is something to do with the camera such as the shutter but the camera is unfamiliar to me so I cannot really say

pentaxuser

I agree. Development faults can hardly be resulting in such straight lines, unless it would be at the same place in the films everytime. If the cassettes have been thoroughly tested, this does not mean that there cannot be a random fault in the spool when transporting the film. Did they also listen to the cassette?

mshchem · Aug 2, 2023

Light strike from somewhere. Camera probably

John Wiegerink · Aug 2, 2023

Bad film back light seal. Fogged film edges are the clue.

Focomatter · Aug 2, 2023

Having seen light leaks from Hasselblad dark slide slot leaks I think something like that may have happened here. Note that the Rollei slide is built-in and runs vertically (I have used the 6000 series cameras that are similar to yours). It is possible that the slide was cracked open a bit possibly in your gear bag without you knowing about it if there was some friction against the opening bar while the bag was moving, jiggling etc.

koraks · Aug 3, 2023

Dirkvandamme said:
I would like to ask you for your help/opinion what the problem could be and how I can solve it.

Hi @Dirkvandamme, a warm welcome to Photrio and glad to have you on board
As the others mentioned, your problem is not development-related, but rather a light leak. The camera used is the first place to look for the cause of this.

Good luck and I hope your problem will be solved! In case you want to further investigate the problem using the forums, it might be useful to know we also have a section catering to camera repairs: https://www.photrio.com/forum/forums/camera-building-repairs-modification.77/

ic-racer · Aug 3, 2023

Did you change lenses before exposing frame 10/11?

In case the camera body is not at fault, how are you processing the film, dip-and dunk, nitrogen burst, rotary, in a sink with light tight tank?

dirk_van_damme · Aug 6, 2023

pentaxuser said:
If this is occurring randomly by which I understand that on any one film some negatives are fine and others show the problem I do not understand why any part of the process including the developers can be at fault as the process affects all the film in the reel. On the negatives you have shown I can see a line across the bottom negative but he top one looks OK, is that correct?

What the cause might be is a mystery to me but I think it has to be unconnected to the process. It looks as if it is something to do with the camera such as the shutter but the camera is unfamiliar to me so I cannot really say

pentaxuser

Hi,
Many thanks for all your reply, indeed this is correct - the camera gear has been extensively tested on these issues by DW-Photo and Paepke-Fototechnik. Their test were all without the issue
regards
Dirk

dirk_van_damme · Aug 6, 2023

ic-racer said:
Did you change lenses before exposing frame 10/11?

In case the camera body is not at fault, how are you processing the film, dip-and dunk, nitrogen burst, rotary, in a sink with light tight tank?

Thanks for reply
I did not change lenses - both are taken with 50mm lens
i develop my film patterson tank. I use these tanks very regularly and on a lot of other films the issue does not appear.
thanks for help in advance
best regards
dirk

dirk_van_damme · Aug 6, 2023

otto.f said:
I agree. Development faults can hardly be resulting in such straight lines, unless it would be at the same place in the films everytime. If the cassettes have been thoroughly tested, this does not mean that there cannot be a random fault in the spool when transporting the film. Did they also listen to the cassette?

many thanks for reply. i agree with you that the development could hardly be the area of the problem. After the last photo taken the camera winds further automatically the rest of the film - can it be caused by way I take out the film? The cassette sounds normal - nothing unusual. The issues appears only on Hp5+ and retro400s films which are both 400iso films but again not on all of those films of this type that I use appears the issue
best regards
dirk

dirk_van_damme · Aug 6, 2023

John Wiegerink said:
Bad film back light seal. Fogged film edges are the clue.

Many thanks John - sounds interesting as to find the cause of the issue
do you mean the back light seal broken? as it appears in the middle of the film how could this be causing the problem - the film is covered within the camera as well when I am taking it out of the camera. Can you give more detail on your idea?
best regards
Dirk

dirk_van_damme · Aug 6, 2023

Focomatter said:
Having seen light leaks from Hasselblad dark slide slot leaks I think something like that may have happened here. Note that the Rollei slide is built-in and runs vertically (I have used the 6000 series cameras that are similar to yours). It is possible that the slide was cracked open a bit possibly in your gear bag without you knowing about it if there was some friction against the opening bar while the bag was moving, jiggling etc.

thanks for your reply
it is an interesting idea that I will investigate further - on how I put the camera and cassette away or handle the gear while I am taking photos.
just to be complete - sorry that I did not mention in my initial question - but the issue sometimes 2 or 3 negatives in a row
best regards
dirk

John Wiegerink · Aug 6, 2023

dirk_van_damme said:
Many thanks John - sounds interesting as to find the cause of the issue
do you mean the back light seal broken? as it appears in the middle of the film how could this be causing the problem - the film is covered within the camera as well when I am taking it out of the camera. Can you give more detail on your idea?
best regards
Dirk

Yes, but since I'm a Hasselblad user I'm not familiar with your backs and I don't know exactly how they operate. I will still stick with light leak in the rear region somewhere. Between the back and body, a light seal in the back or something similar. Since you are using a high-speed film fogging will show up more because the film is more sensitive to light. Also, the longer that the film sets in the film gate before or after the exposure the more it will be fogged. That's why some frames will show fog and some won't. The brighter the light is around the camera the more the film will be fogged. You could test by going into a dark room with camera, penlight/flashlight and "new" roll of film. With all lights off wind on to frame 2 or three, set the cameras down and shine the flash light only on one side near the back and where the camera joins. Let the thing set there doing its shinning for ten or so minutes. Advance the film. Now turn the camera on it's side doing the same thing again until all four sides are done and you have four equal exposures. Develop the film and see what you have.

John Wiegerink · Aug 6, 2023

dirk_van_damme said:
thanks for your reply
it is an interesting idea that I will investigate further - on how I put the camera and cassette away or handle the gear while I am taking photos.
just to be complete - sorry that I did not mention in my initial question - but the issue sometimes 2 or 3 negatives in a row
best regards
dirk

Those two or three negatives sat in the film gate longer. Either before or after exposure.

dirk_van_damme · Aug 7, 2023

John Wiegerink said:
Yes, but since I'm a Hasselblad user I'm not familiar with your backs and I don't know exactly how they operate. I will still stick with light leak in the rear region somewhere. Between the back and body, a light seal in the back or something similar. Since you are using a high-speed film fogging will show up more because the film is more sensitive to light. Also, the longer that the film sets in the film gate before or after the exposure the more it will be fogged. That's why some frames will show fog and some won't. The brighter the light is around the camera the more the film will be fogged. You could test by going into a dark room with camera, penlight/flashlight and "new" roll of film. With all lights off wind on to frame 2 or three, set the cameras down and shine the flash light only on one side near the back and where the camera joins. Let the thing set there doing its shinning for ten or so minutes. Advance the film. Now turn the camera on it's side doing the same thing again until all four sides are done and you have four equal exposures. Develop the film and see what you have.

John, many thanks for your very interesting idea and approach. I will take it forward and test out the camera following your method. Again many thanks!!
very best
Dirk

dirk_van_damme · Aug 7, 2023

John Wiegerink said:
Those two or three negatives sat in the film gate longer. Either before or after exposure.

Hi John, the two negatives were taken with a 20 min difference. All the negatives on the film were taken on two locations within 1 hour max
thanks and very best
Dirk

John Wiegerink · Aug 7, 2023

dirk_van_damme said:
Hi John, the two negatives were taken with a 20 min difference. All the negatives on the film were taken on two locations within 1 hour max
thanks and very best
Dirk

Dirk,
I can't think of much else to tell you, but I still think it wise to do a flashlight test. You don't have to set in the dark with the camera while you're doing it. Just don't let heavy room light hit the camera while you're doing the test. I think you'll be surprised, but I could be wrong.

otto.f · Aug 8, 2023

dirk_van_damme said:
Hi John, the two negatives were taken with a 20 min difference. All the negatives on the film were taken on two locations within 1 hour max
thanks and very best
Dirk

And was the light stable with one intensity, or was it sunny, cloudy, sunny?

dirk_van_damme · Aug 8, 2023

otto.f said:
And was the light stable with one intensity, or was it sunny, cloudy, sunny?

hi Otto
it was sunny all dy but the second photo - the one without the issue - Is taken in the showdows
best regards
Dirk

dirk_van_damme · Aug 21, 2023

Hi,
many thanks to you all for your input - i will take your recommendations and suggestions forward
i close this post now
very best
Dirk

John Wiegerink · Aug 21, 2023

dirk_van_damme said:
Hi,
many thanks to you all for your input - i will take your recommendations and suggestions forward
i close this post now
very best
Dirk

Dirk,
Do all of us here a favor and please post back on this thread or start a new one and let us know what you found out as to what your problem or solution was. Far too many posters ask for help and then never let the folks who tried to help know what the solution was. Good luck and I'm sure you'll figure it out. If not try us again.
John

dirk_van_damme · Aug 21, 2023

Hi John
Thanks for this - i will do so - it may take a while but i will give feedback
Very best
Dirk

John Wiegerink · Aug 21, 2023

Dirk,
That would be great and I know I'm not the only one who is curious. We're in no hurry so take your time.
John

pentaxuser · Aug 21, 2023

dirk_van_damme said:
Hi John
Thanks for this - i will do so - it may take a while but i will give feedback
Very best
Dirk

Thanks That saves me having to ask for feedback and risking a warning from another resident of the "Low Countries"

Uneven development of film HP5+ and Retro400s with DDX and FX-39II

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