Uneven development 5x7 sheets

[Laci Toth]

I know it was discussed so many times but I couldn't find the answer for this combo though it could be me only.
I started developing 5x7 sheets in 5x7 trays.
First I only rocked the tray back and forth and I got the stripes so then I changed this rocking process to back and forth and left to right and clockwise or anticlockwise as I hold a tray in my hands. The outcome was way better but still, they are uneven.
It’s fomapan 400 in Rodinal 1:50 for 10 minutes as I cut the development time by 10% because I use pinhole and could get quite contrasty negs and cutting helps it. I presoak the negs for 2 minutes, 10 minutes in the dev, 30 seconds in the stop bath and 3-4 minutes in the fixer and then the wash. I used the same rocking process for all the baths. Continuous agitation in all trays.
Is it the rocking process or what if not? Should I use larger trays so the neg will have a larger space to move freely.
The reason why use Rodinal is because it pulls back the film speed so it also helps with the contrast.
I’ve DD-X as well but I don't know if I'd dilute it 1:9 so it won't be that strong would it make any difference?
The first neg is the first attempt the second when I used all three rocking moves.

 

[removed account4]

I have never rocked film in a tray like that because it always seemed to be a recipe for disaster. I have heard of some people putting a pencil under the tray and gently rocking back and forth on the pencil, people sometimes do this with a FR tank too. ( I've done it with an fr tank with mixed results )
when I tray process film .. I get a tray bigger than the film, so it would be 8x10 if I used 5x7 film.. I presoak as you did, and I continuous agitate the film by shuffling it in the tray. if you put your hand under the film and turn it over and then turn it over again, and again and again, you get a rhythm. you look in your development chart for continuous agitation like rotary processing and that is the time you use.there is a good explanation of how to do the shuffle in answer Adams "the negative" ..
there is another method that a lot of folks tend to use called the taco method. if you only have a few sheets to process at a time and have a film tank to develop roll film this video might be of some help

good luck !
John

 

[MattKing]

When I agitate with prints in trays, I do so by lifting one corner of the tray and setting it down, then lift the opposite corner and set it down, then lift one of the other corners and then set it down and then lift the opposite corner and then set it down, and then repeat.
Each lift and repeat cycle takes about three seconds.
I would use a slightly larger tray - 6x8 would be good.

 

[jgboothe]

Do the vertical bands in the negatives correspond with ridges/troughs at the bottom of the tray? It looks that way to me. Are you developing with emulsion side down? If both of these are true, then the first thing is to develop with emulsion up. This may resolve these problems. Beyond that, it comes down to tray size, amount of developer and agitation technique. A bigger tray and more aggressive/randomized agitation should both increase evenness. Having said that, with 5x4 I have had very even results using a food storage type tray only a bit bigger than the film with quite high sides and only a small amount of dev. Having a small volume and high tray walls allows you to rock pretty aggressively without spilling the liquid. The key is to ensure that the developer over the film is constantly being changed. Whichever type of tray is used, I do 3x tips in each 'direction' (top, right, bottom, left). The three tips allow you to build up a strong 'swell' by the last one, which really gets all the developer on top of the film changed. I have used the constant turning over method in the past, and it worked pretty well, but it's quite easy to introduce scratches.

 

[Laci Toth]

I have never rocked film in a tray like that because it always seemed to be a recipe for disaster. I have heard of some people putting a pencil under the tray and gently rocking back and forth on the pencil, people sometimes do this with a FR tank too. ( I've done it with an fr tank with mixed results )
when I tray process film .. I get a tray bigger than the film, so it would be 8x10 if I used 5x7 film.. I presoak as you did, and I continuous agitate the film by shuffling it in the tray. if you put your hand under the film and turn it over and then turn it over again, and again and again, you get a rhythm. you look in your development chart for continuous agitation like rotary processing and that is the time you use.there is a good explanation of how to do the shuffle in answer Adams "the negative" ..
there is another method that a lot of folks tend to use called the taco method. if you only have a few sheets to process at a time and have a film tank to develop roll film this video might be of some help

good luck !
John

What you reckon with this taco method which I quite like. Should I use intermittent agitation, first 30 seconds then 10 seconds in every minute for the remaining time?

 

[Laci Toth]

Do the vertical bands in the negatives correspond with ridges/troughs at the bottom of the tray? It looks that way to me. Are you developing with emulsion side down? If both of these are true, then the first thing is to develop with emulsion up. This may resolve these problems. Beyond that, it comes down to tray size, amount of developer and agitation technique. A bigger tray and more aggressive/randomized agitation should both increase evenness. Having said that, with 5x4 I have had very even results using a food storage type tray only a bit bigger than the film with quite high sides and only a small amount of dev. Having a small volume and high tray walls allows you to rock pretty aggressively without spilling the liquid. The key is to ensure that the developer over the film is constantly being changed. Whichever type of tray is used, I do 3x tips in each 'direction' (top, right, bottom, left). The three tips allow you to build up a strong 'swell' by the last one, which really gets all the developer on top of the film changed. I have used the constant turning over method in the past, and it worked pretty well, but it's quite easy to introduce scratches.

I develop them with the emulsion side up.
I try it tomorrow in larger trays and will carry on with a process you and the others mentioned.
The developer’s ratio is 1:50 so it’s more than half a liter in a 5x7 tray which is like half full.

 

[Laci Toth]

When I agitate with prints in trays, I do so by lifting one corner of the tray and setting it down, then lift the opposite corner and set it down, then lift one of the other corners and then set it down and then lift the opposite corner and then set it down, and then repeat.
Each lift and repeat cycle takes about three seconds.
I would use a slightly larger tray - 6x8 would be good.

I only have 12x16 and the 5x7. The former will need a lot of liquid so I might get smaller trays.

 

[Peter Schrager]

I only use trays...I cycle through the stack and then wait one minute between..works every time
You might want sacrifice some film to do it in the light..why not it will save you in the long run
Go get yourself a dark green filter and a footswitch and learn to develop by inspection
So easy and you get perfect negatives every time

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

What you reckon with this taco method which I quite like. Should I use intermittent agitation, first 30 seconds then 10 seconds in every minute for the remaining time?

You'll need a 3 reel Patterson tank or bigger tank to develop 5x7 sheets using the taco method. Intermittent agitation will necessitate relatively larger volume of chemistry. With continuous agitation you can do with less volume of chemistry.

 

[koraks]

I use a flat bottom tray a little bigger than the film size. Dimensions don't seem very critical as long as there's some margin around the film. Agitation every 30 seconds for about 5 seconds. Initial 30 to 60 seconds. I use about 200ml for a 4x5, as long as there's about half an inch of developer in the tray it seems to work fine. Agitation pattern should be as random as possible. No presoak.

Experiment a bit until you get it right; it works, but you need to figure out what works for you. Lower pH developers tend to give less problems with unevenness in my experience; eg xtol works quite easily and gives very nice results with foma400.

 

[Laci Toth]

Thanks for all the responses!
As I could figure it out I should use either a larger tray and continuous agitation or smaller trays are enough until it's flat inside at the bottom and then intermittent agitation is enough or I could try the three reel tank taco. Some say presoak others say no.
As I’ve 12x16 inch non flat trays and 5x7 non flat, I first try it with the larger tray and continuous randomise agitation and will go from there.

 

[koraks]

For cheap trays try plastic storage boxes from the dollar shops. I use them a lot and they work a treat.

 

[Laci Toth]

For cheap trays try plastic storage boxes from the dollar shops. I use them a lot and they work a treat.

Will metal trays do? As far as I could see (here in Bristol, UK) plastic trays are either very thin or have a groove inside. The steel metal trays used for baking seems sturdy and flat and smooth inside.
Also, do you have any agitation scheme for stop and fixer bath as well?
Can I get these stripes in the stop and fixer bath as well if I already eliminated them in the developing tray?

 

[removed account4]

What you reckon with this taco method which I quite like. Should I use intermittent agitation, first 30 seconds then 10 seconds in every minute for the remaining time?

hi laci

I've heard of people doing continual agitation, I've also heard of people doing intermittent, and semi-stand and everything in-between. you will need to presoak your film without the rubber band to insure your annihilation layer under the band is removed..
I haven't used this method in years, I am fortunate enough to have a place where I can do open trays..and shuffle

 

[Laci Toth]

hi laci

I've heard of people doing continual agitation, I've also heard of people doing intermittent, and semi-stand and everything in-between. you will need to presoak your film without the rubber band to insure your annihilation layer under the band is removed..
I haven't used this method in years, I am fortunate enough to have a place where I can do open trays..and shuffle

Alright, thanks! Since then I got flat trays so I try a sheet in them and will get back with the result.
This taco method though still interests me...

 

[Luckless]

Will metal trays do? As far as I could see (here in Bristol, UK) plastic trays are either very thin or have a groove inside.

How strong do you really need the plastic trays to be? You only need something to sit flat on a table and hold a sheet of plastic and a bit of liquid while in use, or sit on a shelf/drying rack/whatever between sessions. Not like you need it to survive being tossed in a kid's backpack and keep lunch safe while dragged to class with a dozen heavy text books.

 

[Laci Toth]

How strong do you really need the plastic trays to be? You only need something to sit flat on a table and hold a sheet of plastic and a bit of liquid while in use, or sit on a shelf/drying rack/whatever between sessions. Not like you need it to survive being tossed in a kid's backpack and keep lunch safe while dragged to class with a dozen heavy text books.

Yea, I got you mate and dig it, left the ladder outside, don’t wanna go out as there’s heavy rain, though I could but just don’t bother, but might change my mind and lean it against the clouds so I can reach the level.
Thin means thin, really thin I can even fold them, the other possibility was with grooves inside, that’s why I used the word ‘or’.
Since then I solved it, I can even cook a sandwich in it and pour it in the backpack.

 

[MattKing]

Avoid metal, unless you are able to invest in high grade stainless steel ($$$$$).
Pyrex glass is good.

 

[koraks]

Yeah, metal is less appropriate. They don't have flat bottomed stackable storage boxes? Those are what I use; I simply discard the lids. The tupperware style boxes work well too.

 

[removed account4]

unless it is stainless steel or plastic ( like a film tank ) you might run into reactivity issues.
aluminium, for example, like steel wool and copper are reactive with silver ( that is why they
are used in silver recovery systems ).

have fun!
John

 

[Laci Toth]

Yeah, metal is less appropriate. They don't have flat bottomed stackable storage boxes? Those are what I use; I simply discard the lids. The tupperware style boxes work well too.

I found oven dish. All the rest was way too small or had grooves inside or was just rubbish.
These ones are heavy but sturdy and flat.
I’ve developed 3 sheets and one method worked only. Presoak 2 minutes, developer continuous randomized agitation, then stop and fix and wash. I agitated them (though less randomized) in the stop and fix as well just to be sure.
I play with the idea as you mentioned lower ph, to get a developer with low ph which can also decrease speed and lower contrast.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Definitely stripes due to the ridges/troughs in the tray plus surge marks on the side due to using a too-small tray.

Solution: larger trays and emulsion-side-up development. Agitate by lifting the negative completely out of the developer, turn it 180° and gently re-submerge it. I find this a lot better than tray-rocking (which can cause surge marks at the edges of the negatives).

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

For a very interesting alternative to Taco, rocking, and lifting methods discussed above see this:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/brush-development—recommended-brush-types.66578/#post-940505

 

[jmdavis]

Edward Weston used enameled metal trays.

 

[George Collier]

Fred Picker described a very comprehensive method for tray developing for up to 8 - 10 sheets, with 10 pushing it. It starts with a tray at least one film size larger than the film (I use an 8 x 10 tray for 4x5 film).
It's very well described and it solved every problem I had with sheet film development, after trying hangers & tanks, and tubes.
I'll try to find it and post it.