Uneven density "blobs" at edge of frame.

Tom Kershaw · Oct 5, 2006

Hopefully someone will help me pin-point the following problem I have recently had developing 120 film in a few instances with the Paterson Super System 4, illustrated with a scan from a contact sheet I made today.

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I've added a rectangle to draw your attention to the problem area. This only happens on one side of the film, always the same, and occurs whether processing one 120 film or 3. There are no signs of light leakages on the edge of the film.

To my mind, the most probably hypothesis I have been able to come up is that I've switched from using a stop bath to 30 seconds of running water and that some developer is being retained at the "bottom" of each developing reel, therefore developing that portion of the negative longer and increasing density.

I'm going to try another test roll using a stop, but wanted to get some input first.

Film developer was Ilfotec HC, and fixer, ILFORD HYPAM.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Tom.

reellis67 · Oct 5, 2006

I've seen a solid line where there is less density - this was caused by the shutter 'capping', or least that is what I believe the term is, but this uneven density is different. Is this the last frame on the roll or the first frame, or does this occur on *each* negative on the roll? Also, is the pattern always the same or does it change each time you see it? (This looks like a M645 negative to me)

- Randy

Ronald Moravec · Oct 5, 2006

Darkslide light leak? You don`t mention camera. Pentax 6x7 do not have them. RB67 do as do roll film backs.

do some with camera up side down and with long edge oriented where this error occured. Cover the darkslide opening with black tape and leave it that way for the full roll. See if the problem goes away.

I do not think it is retained developer.

Tom Kershaw · Oct 5, 2006

I'm using a Bronica SQ-B. Ronald, I'll try your suggestion about the black tape. I have two backs and generally use the other back for colour film where I haven't had this problem.

To Randy, this pattern is visible on each frame.

Thanks,

Tom.

reellis67 · Oct 5, 2006

Since it is on each frame I would certainly start with the back.

- Randy

Tom Kershaw · Oct 5, 2006

I've just taped up the possibly offending back with black electrical tape, and am about to shoot a test roll. I'll also print one of my recent Bronica RF645 negatives where I haven't noticed the problem.

Tom.

j-fr · Oct 5, 2006

Tom Kershaw said:
To Randy, this pattern is visible on each frame.

It is certainly not leaking light from the dark slide. It looks more like air bubbels during developing, but as it is not not along the edge of the film, that's out of the question. So the next thing to look for is dust or other objects in the camera. The fact that the pattern is the same on each frame causes that suspicion.

j-fr

www.j-fr.dk

Jon Shiu · Oct 5, 2006

It looks like an area with not enough developer, hence the "thin" blotches on the negative. I would guess it to be at the top of the reel, but if it happens in the bottom rolls when you develop 3, that would indicate otherwise.

Jon

Tom Kershaw · Oct 5, 2006

I've now shot, developed, and printed the test roll of film and will post the scans later. The problem appears much reduced. I sank the reel into the developer rather than pouring it in, used Ilfotec HC 1+31 (like Kodak HC-110 dilution B) so plenty of activity and made up 525ml of solution to ensure complete coverage. Didn't print the RF645 negs as not to hand.

Another issue I could think of would be contamination by ILFOTOL wetting agent. Um... Will have to test for that as well. I developed 6 35mm films today, and have made contact sheets and a couple of 9x6" prints with no problems.

Thanks again for all the help,

Tom.

br549 · Oct 5, 2006

Greetings,
I used to have the same problem and Ive been able to get rid of it by changing my agitation routine from 30 seconds to 1 minute on the first round. I never had the problem with 35mm film.
Good luck.

Stoo Batchelor · Oct 5, 2006

Tom Kershaw said:
Another issue I could think of would be contamination by ILFOTOL wetting agent. Um... Will have to test for that as well. I developed 6 35mm films today, and have made contact sheets and a couple of 9x6" prints with no problems.

With regards to the contamination of wetting agent, as this seems to be a problem cropping up quite often lately, would it not be better to drop the film minus the reel in to a seperate container holding your water/agent mix. This would avoid any contamination of the reels.

Just a thought

Stoo

Tom Kershaw · Oct 5, 2006

Stoo Batchelor said:
With regards to the contamination of wetting agent, as this seems to be a problem cropping up quite often lately, would it not be better to drop the film minus the reel in to a seperate container holding your water/agent mix. This would avoid any contamination of the reels.

Just a thought

Stoo

I might be concerned about scratching the film, but good idea non the less. I've put up the results of part 2 of my investigation (including scans) at the following URL:

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Tom.

m_liddell · Oct 5, 2006

I have this exact problem with both my RB67 and mamiya 7 in pyrocat and diafine in a paterson tank (35mm in xtrol is fine). So far I have tried:

Hewes stainless reel
Presoak (dev gets to film quicker)
More dev (some gets ‘held’ in the top of the paterson tank with agitation)
Longer agitation at the beginning
Rapping the tank on the table after each agitation (kill air bubbles)

Next step is another tank. Other than that I’m out of ideas

glbeas · Oct 5, 2006

Possibly fingerprinting the emulsion on one side while loading the film? Those smudges are suspiciously fingertip shaped.

Stoo Batchelor · Oct 5, 2006

Tom Kershaw said:
I might be concerned about scratching the film, but good idea non the less. I've put up the results of part 2 of my investigation (including scans) at the following URL:

Dead Link Removed

Tom.

Tom, if you use one of the disposable gallon bottles you get purified water in cut in half. there are no sharp edges for your film to come in contact with. A quick twist of the reel and drop the film/films in.

Having said that, your new images do look alot better so maybe it is a light leak after all.

Regards

Stoo

rjas · Oct 5, 2006

I have negatives that have this exact stuff on em. I thought they were airbells, so I started banging the tank on the sink after each agitation. they dissapeared so try that out.

Tom Kershaw · Oct 6, 2006

I'm going to test for these suggestions later today.

Blighty · Oct 6, 2006

Tom,
To me, it looks like air bubbles. Maybe you need to put more developer in the tank. Just to state the obvious, you are tapping the tank to expel bubbles aren't you? I did have a problem once when processing 2 120 films at the same time. The bottom film had air bubble marks along it top edge. I concluded (maybe erroneously) that air bubbles were somehow trapped beneath the upper reel that no amount of tapping would release. I process 120 films individually these days and I can't say I've had a repeat of the problem.

Tom Kershaw · Oct 6, 2006

Blighty said:
Tom,
To me, it looks like air bubbles. Maybe you need to put more developer in the tank. Just to state the obvious, you are tapping the tank to expel bubbles aren't you? I did have a problem once when processing 2 120 films at the same time. The bottom film had air bubble marks along it top edge. I concluded (maybe erroneously) that air bubbles were somehow trapped beneath the upper reel that no amount of tapping would release. I process 120 films individually these days and I can't say I've had a repeat of the problem.

I'm not totally incompetent. Both the films were developed individually with 525ml developer. More news later.

Alex C · Oct 6, 2006

Hi Tom

I have had exactly the same issues with these marks and still trying to figure out the cause !!
But I do know its not a camera fault because i get it with both Hasselblad and Pentax 67.
Im also using a Paterson tank.
It will only show up where you have a bright area at the edge of the frame.
Possible causes ??
I think possibly air bubbles, Not enough developer in the tank, damp reels, wetting agent ???
If you find a difinitive solution do let us know.

I have also seen same issues with Photos on the net from some famed Photographers, so glad were not the only ones with the problem.
Alex.

TheFlyingCamera · Oct 6, 2006

It doesn't look like air bubbles or bells - they usually leave a very distinctive circular mark where there is a vast density difference. These look more like flow marks where developer did not flow evenly across the entire frame (either under-bathed where the darker spots are or surged where the brighter spots are). I would try two things: one, make sure you pre-wet your film prior to developing (at least two minutes of continuous agitation in filtered tap water, or distilled water if your tap water is nasty and you have no filtration system), and two, vary your agitation pattern (try horizontal rotation - swing the tank from left to right, bending your arm at the elbow, instead of vertical inversion). I'd also give your reels a good thorough scrubbing with some baking soda and a toothbrush to loosen up any chemistry that may be gummed onto your reels. If the problem persists, switch to stainless steel. Wetting agents like Foto-Flo or Ilfotol are notorious for clinging to plastic reels.

Tom Kershaw · Oct 6, 2006

Scott,

Thanks alot for your suggestions. I have implemented many and my results are now much better, i.e. the circular marks seem to have gone.

This is documented along with a scan at the following URL:

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timeUnit · Oct 12, 2006

I've had the exact same issues, and I'm quite sure it's
1) related to 120-film in Paterson reels
2) related to agitation
3) not a light leak. That would have been dark on the neg and light on the print. This is the opposite.

I'm willing to bet that the culprit is your agitation. I had serious issues with this a while back, and traced it down to my poor agitation technique. The Paterson reels require a good technique to get new developer to the whole film.

My solution:

1) New agitation pattern. Start with tank in your hands, upright position. Tilt the tank to the right, 90 degrees, not more. Tilt back to upright. Now move the tank in a fast circular motion to create a "whirlwind" in the fluid. Tilt tank to the left, 90°, tilt back to upright. Repeat. This works great with Paterson reels, but do NOT try it with Hewes stainless reels. (The film will dislodge from the reel and it will be a mess.)

2) New reels. I use Hewes reels with my Paterson tanks. I can now do minimal agitation, with great results, which was impossible with Paterson reels. I agitate 5 sec every 5 minutes.

m_liddell · Oct 12, 2006

timeUnit said:
I've had the exact same issues, and I'm quite sure it's
1) related to 120-film in Paterson reels
2) related to agitation
3) not a light leak. That would have been dark on the neg and light on the print. This is the opposite.

I'm willing to bet that the culprit is your agitation. I had serious issues with this a while back, and traced it down to my poor agitation technique. The Paterson reels require a good technique to get new developer to the whole film.

My solution:

1) New agitation pattern. Start with tank in your hands, upright position. Tilt the tank to the right, 90 degrees, not more. Tilt back to upright. Now move the tank in a fast circular motion to create a "whirlwind" in the fluid. Tilt tank to the left, 90°, tilt back to upright. Repeat. This works great with Paterson reels, but do NOT try it with Hewes stainless reels. (The film will dislodge from the reel and it will be a mess.)

2) New reels. I use Hewes reels with my Paterson tanks. I can now do minimal agitation, with great results, which was impossible with Paterson reels. I agitate 5 sec every 5 minutes.

I get the problem with BOTH hewes and Paterson reels. I have even got the problem with diafine (which requires almost no agitation at all) which leaves me very confused.

Tom Kershaw · Oct 12, 2006

Some of the 120 format films I've developed (12) since my October 7 posting demonstrate this issue although others do not. Um.. I've got another film to develop this afternoon, so I'll try timeUnit's agitation suggestion.

Uneven density "blobs" at edge of frame.

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