Understanding water qualities and effect on film

You have heard it hear folks, Ralph is right on.

I have been using trix in D76 for one type of neg and
HP5 in Pyro for another type of neg from the very beginning and Ralph's wisdom should be followed.

RalphLambrecht said:

That's probably the worst reason I've heard so far.

However, I would like to pass along a piece of advice, given to me by C. J. Elfont, a creative photographer and author himself, which has served me well over the years. ‘Pick one film, one developer, one paper and work them over and over again, until you have a true feeling for how they work individually and in combination with each other.’ This may sound a bit pragmatic, but it is good advice, and if it makes you feel too limited, try two each. The point is that an arsenal of too many material alternatives is often just an impatient response to disappointing initial attempts or immature and inconsistent technique. Unless you thrive on endless trial and error techniques, or enjoy experimentation with different materials in general, it is far better to improve craftsmanship and final results with repeated practice and meticulous record keeping for any given combination of proven materials, rather than blaming it possibly on the wrong material characteristics. There are no miracle potions!

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Puma said:

Hello,

In my pursuit of bulletproof (foolproof) negatives with the new TMax I've examined my water after mixing chemistry with distilled water and actually seeing my grain suffer with the distilled.

Thanks for your insights,

Puma

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I don't see how using distilled water instead of domestic supplied water could affect graininess.

All developers that are off-the-shelf, are designed to work with either DW or tap water. There should be no significant difference. In fact, the only difference might be that you have to use a wetting agent in the final rinse with tap water to prevent water spots from the dissolved minerals.

High levels of minerals in photographic solutions generally only make them cloudy or cause sludge to form, and this is only at high levels. The addition of sequestrants prevents this.

PE

Keith Tapscott. said:

I don't see how using distilled water instead of domestic supplied water could affect graininess.

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It doesn't with most commercial film developers, but there have been some including at least 2 from Kodak where distilled or de-ionised water has been specifically recommended.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

... but there have been some including at least 2 from Kodak where distilled or de-ionised water has been specifically recommended.

Ian

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In regards to grain?

RalphLambrecht said:

In regards to grain?

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With regards to overall developer/negative quality which would impact on graininess.

Any developer formula using very small quantities of developing agent(s) as well as low sulphite and alkalinity with no buffering is susceptible to change caused by variarions in water supply.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

With regards to overall developer/negative quality which would impact on graininess.

Any developer formula using very small quantities of developing agent(s) as well as low sulphite and alkalinity with no buffering is susceptible to change caused by variarions in water supply.

Ian

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I still don't see how distilled water affects grain or that Kodak's recommendation to use distilled water was made to reduce grain. I have used Kodak's commercial developers with tap water of three different countries and recently switched to their published formulas with distilled water. There was a very slight difference in development time with D76 but no visible difference in grain.

RalphLambrecht said:

I still don't see how distilled water affects grain or that Kodak's recommendation to use distilled water was made to reduce grain. I have used Kodak's commercial developers with tap water of three different countries and recently switched to their published formulas with distilled water. There was a very slight difference in development time with D76 but no visible difference in grain.

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Since when has D76 been a "developer formula using very small quantities of developing agent(s) as well as low sulphite and alkalinity with no buffering"

I did say "It doesn't with most commercial film developers" which includes D76/ID-11 and all Ilford & Kodak's current film developers.

The recommendation to use Distilled or Deionised water was for developers with very significantly less developing agent(s), typically 5% of the sulphite level of D76, no buffering etc. So variations in water - mineral content and pH can have a very significant effect on the balance of a developer, alter that and graininess can be affected.

There's few developers like this left in commercial production, Neofin Blue (Beutler) is one, Kodak & Ilford no longer make their High Definition developers.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

Since when has D76 been a "developer formula using very small quantities of developing agent(s) as well as low sulphite and alkalinity with no buffering" ...

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The term 'very small quantities' is not very descriptive and hard to measure.

To me, this included diluted D76, 1+1, leaving only 60 ml per roll of film in a Jobo drum processor. No affect on graininess due to a switch to distilled water ever detected.

Ian Grant said:

... So variations in water - mineral content and pH can have a very significant effect on the balance of a developer, alter that and graininess can be affected. ...

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Of course mineral content and pH have an effect, but graininess 'can' be affected? That's a bit vague. 'Can' or 'will' and by how much? Is there a real influence with practical consequences, or is this a hypothetical argument? If it is really something to worry about (which I doubt), does it affect commercial or home-brew developers when switching from tap to distilled water or only the the way around?

I have been down this road before... just a note about "soft water" Washing film in it will make the emulsion swell! I found out the hard way years ago.

RalphLambrecht said:

The term 'very small quantities' is not very descriptive and hard to measure.

To me, this included diluted D76, 1+1, leaving only 60 ml per roll of film in a Jobo drum processor. No affect on graininess due to a switch to distilled water ever detected.

Of course mineral content and pH have an effect, but graininess 'can' be affected? That's a bit vague. 'Can' or 'will' and by how much? Is there a real influence with practical consequences, or is this a hypothetical argument? If it is really something to worry about (which I doubt), does it affect commercial or home-brew developers when switching from tap to distilled water or only the the way around?

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Sulphite is used in film developers to control grain as is pH. so if you have very dilute developers with low levels of sulphite and carbonate then water quality will affect the practical results, these aren't fine garin developers and a change in pH will affect graininess.

Kodak use low PH to give much finer grain in D23 and particularly D25 which is D23 with (meta)bisulphite to reduce the pH to about 7, however like D76 they have a high level of Sulphite - 100gm per litre.

Even diluting D76/ID-11 to 1+1 or 1+3 still leaves higher levels of dev agents and particularly Sodium Sulphite 50g (1+1) and 25g (1+3) is still 5 times more than in the High Definition developers like Ilford Hyfin and Kodak HDD.

I agree with you that most tap water should have little or no effects with the majority of commercial or home-brew developers, and the same with distilled/deionised water.

At what point water quality has a noticeable effect on diluting developers I doubt anyone's tested, because there's too many variations. However when you get to dilutions like 1+3 with developers like D76, Microdol-x, Perceptol etc then water pH will begin to have a noticeable effect. In recent years Kodak have dropped the 1+3 dilution of Xtol from their data-sheets.

However the Beutler type high definition developers and the low contrast developers like POTA are highly susceptible to water variations which is why distilled water is recommended.

Ian

Ok I am going to get killed on this comment but I will let the experts explain what I will so poorly explain.

Laminar flow,, the quicker chemicals can get to the horny exposed silver halides the better ones film will evenly develop.

Tap water contains minerals that can slow down the progression of the developing agents within the developer and subsequently slow down the copulation process.

Distilled water on the other hand , is mineral free , or less and allows the developing agents get to their partners much faster.

sorry for bringing down this wonderful discussion with my purile description on how I think water has an effect on developing out an image.

:munch:

RalphLambrecht said:

The term 'very small quantities' is not very descriptive and hard to measure.

To me, this included diluted D76, 1+1, leaving only 60 ml per roll of film in a Jobo drum processor. No affect on graininess due to a switch to distilled water ever detected.

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Ian did mention unbuffered developers with low quantities of sulphite and developing agent(s)
D-76 is buffered with a small amount of borax. May be not highly buffered, but certainly not unbuffered.

http://www.borax.com/detergents/pheffect.html

Your comment about fairly low volumes of D-76 for a Jobo rotary processor is interesting. Out of curiosity Ralph, what slight differences did you notice in development times between packaged D-76 and scratch-mixed?

There's a simple test for water quality Bob

If Dinesh floats it's bad, if he sinks it's pure

Ian

Bob Carnie said:

Ok I am going to get killed on this comment but I will let the experts explain what I will so poorly explain.

Laminar flow,, the quicker chemicals can get to the horny exposed silver halides the better ones film will evenly develop.

Tap water contains minerals that can slow down the progression of the developing agents within the developer and subsequently slow down the copulation process.

Distilled water on the other hand , is mineral free , or less and allows the developing agents get to their partners much faster.

sorry for bringing down this wonderful discussion with my purile description on how I think water has an effect on developing out an image.

:munch:

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I believe you are thinking of osmotic pressure, which is proportional to the sum of the particles in solution (both ions and uncharged species). Laminar flow is something entirely different. The amount of minerals in tap water which are measured in (ppm, parts per million) are insignicent compared to the amount of chemicals in the developer.

Bob Carnie said:

Tap water contains minerals that can slow down the progression of the developing agents within the developer and subsequently slow down the copulation process.

Distilled water on the other hand , is mineral free , or less and allows the developing agents get to their partners much faster.

sorry for bringing down this wonderful discussion with my purile description on how I think water has an effect on developing out an image.

:munch:

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No need to apologies, we are all here to learn something new from various apug participants.

AFAIK, there are additives in commercial developers to counter what may be lurking in domestic water supplies to ensure consistent results.

Keith Tapscott. said:

... Out of curiosity Ralph, what slight differences did you notice in development times between packaged D-76 and scratch-mixed?

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Too slight to be certain about the cause but a very slightly reduction in development time with distilled water. I don't know if this is due to the water or the self-mixed developer.

RalphLambrecht said:

Too slight to be certain about the cause but a very slightly reduction in development time with distilled water. I don't know if this is due to the water or the self-mixed developer.

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First in the case of D76/ID-11 the commercial products have moved slightly from the published formula.

Kodak's D76 MSDS sheets show Boric anhydride has been added and it's widely thought that the actual formula now used is somewhere between D76 and D76d. D76d uses 8g Borax and 8g Boric acid instead of 5g Borax. ID-11 may also have changed with a slight increase in the borax content from 2g to 3g.

These slight changes in buffering give improvements when the developers are used replenished and at dilutions particularly 1+3, they also have a slight effect on developer activity and so that's why development times are very slightly different.

The second issue is that while commercial developers usually contain sequestering agents to combat hard water they don't change the effects of water pH etc, so there can be small variations in developer activity with both commercial and home-brew developers but these will only be a problem in extreme cases.

In practice the drinking water I've used in various darkrooms over the years has caused no problems with developers like D76,Xtol etc but at times particularly in the summer the chlorine level rises. Chlorine reacts with sulphite, but where the sulphite level is high it'll have negligible impact.

Ian

Ian

I don't think this helps with the OP's issue:

... I've seen my (Tmax) grain suffer with distilled water. ... Is there a book that will help me understand the effects of water content and pH to minimize grain? Has anyone else examined these qualities in their water? Comparisons with tap water to distilled at each stage?

He does not tell us, but I'm assuming he's using commercial developers with all the buffers and sequestering agents available to mankind. By switching to distilled water, he gets a grain issue.

I'd say, there is an issue, but it doesn't have to do with distilled water.

I'm using Tmax developer because I figure the folks at Kodak know what they're doing so I just avoid all the variables of exotic developers and refine the process until I get it right where I want it. I live in an area that has unusual water and the government does not manipulate the water and thus is different than what Kodak would expect. Ultimately I just wanted to know how water affected my grain, I'm not an expert or a chemist so I thought asking would help my cause.

I also don't see what's wrong with saying that "someday" I'd like to try Stoeckler and I never implied that I would switch materials on a whim. Nor did I say that I was blaming water, I just wanted to know the effects. I think it's prudent to ask questions on all the unknown variables but that's just my opinion.

I do genuinely appreciate all the insight that the contributors to this thread have offered.

Thank you,

Puma

Puma

I think you are doing just fine. Keep up the good work and never stop asking questions!

Thank you and here's some more questions; I'm following the instructions in the Kodak Advanced Black and white photography book. I've tested for film speed and development times. My film base is 0.7 and development time is 7:09 for normal contrast. I've shot blank negatives (with the lens cap in place) to use for establishing a minimum black time for printing and the time seems excessively long. At 1:55 seconds, F5.6, Dektol 1:1 and 160 speed paper it seems like a rather long time. Back when I did darkroom work before, I vaguely recall my times being under thirty seconds. When I examine the blank negatives they look cloudy, I'm thinking that they aren't fixed enough. I'm fixing with fairly fresh fixer (Kodak rapidfixer 1:4) for six minutes and agitating for ten seconds every thirty using a twist and spin. I have all new materials and still don't understand why things aren't coming out perfectly? I did notice that Kodak (TMax 400) recommends stop bath and fixing at 70 degrees so I upped my developing temperature to 70 (to maintain my water bath), I use a water stop bath for thirty agitating the whole time, fixing without hardener for six minutes, rinsing twice, agitating hypo for thirty seconds and then letting it sit for two minutes, then washing for thirty minutes letting the tap flow into the center of the spool whilst occasionally flipping the reel over and turning it.

I assume that the cloudiness of the negative is from under fixing?

Can I over agitate whilst fixing? I'd rather continuously agitate than wait.

Can I use the recommended agitation technique for TMax and the twist and spin for the other parts of the process?

Can I use higher temperature for washing to decrease time? If temperature is catalyst to reactions then it seems to me that upping the temp would speed this process. Correct me if I'm wrong. Kodak says TMax 400 can be washed from 70 to 85 degrees. Will the increased temperature degrade the film? Not decrease washing time? Just be a waste of heat? Make no difference?

Am I misunderstanding dilution? I mix 1:4 as in one part chemistry and four parts water, so to make developer I mix two ounces of developer and eight ounces of water together. I pour the developer in the bottle and then the water and shake the bottle vigorously then set it in the water bath and spin it occasionally to bring it to temperature.

I check the temperature with a liquid column thermometer (Paterson Color) and assume, perhaps falsely, that the other chemistry is the same temperature to avoid contaminating solutions, since they're all in the same bottles in the same bath I think it's fair to say they are exactly the same temperture.

I think I said this before but when I was in college I did this about a thousand times with no real problems and I'm unsure why I'm having so many problems now?

Thanks for your insights,

Puma

Have you done a test to determine your clearing time? With T-Max, some recommend a total fixing time = three times the clearing time. Personally, I've always used a total fixing time = twice the clearing time.

If possible, I'd recommend two bath fixing. Use the first bath for the clearing time. And then use a second bath for the same length of time.

And in case you aren't aware what I mean by a test for clearing time, here is what I do. It can be done in the light.

Take a piece of undeveloped film - a scrap of 35mm leader is fine.

Put a drop of fixer on it (the emulsion side) and leave it until the film appears clear under the drop.

Now, immerse the film in the fixer, and start timing. Be sure to agitate regularly.

You will have reached the "clearing time" when the entire film appears clear, and you can no longer differentiate between where the initial drop was, and where it wasn't. Record that time. I would expect something like 3 - 5 minutes.

If you re-use your fixer (and you should), you need to check the clearing time regularly. Once it gets to be about 50% longer, I discard that fixer.

Puma said:

... Am I misunderstanding dilution? I mix 1:4 as in one part chemistry and four parts water, so to make developer I mix two ounces of developer and eight ounces of water together. I pour the developer in the bottle and then the water and shake the bottle vigorously then set it in the water bath and spin it occasionally to bring it to temperature. ...

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We had a whole thread about this, and there are different interpretations, but most people interpret 1:4 as you did, even that I think it would be less confusing to write it as 1+4. Do not shake developer vigorously, as this creates unnecessary air bubbles. Just pour the developer concentrate into the water, bring it to temperature and use it.

Problem solved! Thanks for everyone's help. I switched to two bath fixing and used straight tap water and my problems went down the drain. I now have TMY-2 with a CRYSTAL CLEAR clear film base, no pink, no magenta, no brown hazy weirdness. I've also got superb results from N and N+1 development worked out. This film is amazing, I have never seen such expressive negatives.

Sincerely,

Puma