Understanding the reusability factor of BW chemistry

[fabulousrice]

I've been processing Color at home with CineStill C41 kit for two years, and have been able to process up to 30 rolls of C41 or ECN-2 with the same chemicals.
Stop baths, accordion bottles, extending processing times with each new roll and refrigerating are lessons I've learned over time to extend chemicals lifespan.

Recently ago, I started processing black and white with Adox FX-39 and Ilford Rapid Fixer.
I use a 1+9 solution for the Adox and process at 8 minutes with 4 inversions every 30 seconds.
I use the 1+5 solution for the fixer and fix for 5 minutes using the same inversion technique.

My problem is this:

When I make the chemicals I can process 3 or 4 rolls in a row right after, and they all look great.
But after only a couple of days, if I want to reuse the chemicals again, the result is generally near-blank negatives.
My method of using a stop bath and inversion is similar to the way I process color and works great when the chemicals are freshly made.

Images here.

My friend tells me she can reuse her black and white chemicals for up to a few months. Is it because she uses different chemicals?
Am I missing something here?
Only one frame is apparent on the 35mm roll, which was a long exposure. Am I underdeveloping?

Maybe I need to process at different times when the chemicals have been used a few times, for examples add 30 seconds for each roll?
Unfortunately neither the 16mm super HR nor the Adox 35 in the images have edge markings therefore it's hard to tell if the photos were underexposed and that's what produced these results.
The images shot on the 35mm strip were shot at 1/50 with f/6 in a bright room and should have produced something even something a bit fainter than the long exposure that made the cut.

 

[MattKing]

Your colour chemicals are based on a workflow that is and was oriented toward continual, repeated use of replenished chemicals in order to develop many, many rolls of film, with just a little bit of chemical dumped and a little bit of fresh chemical added for each roll developed.
The kit you have used probably isn't set up for replenishing, but the chemicals are sufficiently similar to those chemicals that are designed for replenishment. As a result, it isn't surprising that you are able to squeeze a bunch of extra film development out of them, as long as you are content with colour and contrast and crossover that gets worse and worse as you get past the recommended capacity.
There are some black and white chemicals - XTol comes to mind, as does Diafine - which are designed either for replenishment or with repeated re-use in mind. And concentrated developer - designed to be diluted 1 + 9 - is unlikely to be set up for that. Most concentrated developers are designed for dilution and limited re-use - often no re-use. My advice is to follow the manufacturer's instructions about capacity and re-use.

 

[fabulousrice]

Your colour chemicals are based on a workflow that is and was oriented toward continual, repeated use of replenished chemicals in order to develop many, many rolls of film, with just a little bit of chemical dumped and a little bit of fresh chemical added for each roll developed.
The kit you have used probably isn't set up for replenishing, but the chemicals are sufficiently similar to those chemicals that are designed for replenishment. As a result, it isn't surprising that you are able to squeeze a bunch of extra film development out of them, as long as you are content with colour and contrast and crossover that gets worse and worse as you get past the recommended capacity.
There are some black and white chemicals - XTol comes to mind, as does Diafine - which are designed either for replenishment or with repeated re-use in mind. And concentrated developer - designed to be diluted 1 + 9 - is unlikely to be set up for that. Most concentrated developers are designed for dilution and limited re-use - often no re-use. My advice is to follow the manufacturer's instructions about capacity and re-use.

Thank you for taking the time.
Unfortunately I cannot find much from the manufacturer's about reusing the Adox FX-39.
I guess I was curious to understand why it can process three rolls in a row properly but takes a 180 turn after two days and barely produces any results at all all of a sudden, if it is the air in the bottle making it go bad or another factor.

 

[xkaes]

My friend tells me she can reuse her black and white chemicals for up to a few months. Is it because she uses different chemicals?

I agree with Matt. Since we know very little about the details, that's my guess too -- but I would never go as long as your friend. The best approach, which may not be possible for you, is to just mix up what you need for your current session. Some chemicals go BAD very fast -- and I mean FAST. For some, it's mere minutes.

 

[Paul Howell]

As noted my MattKing, Color and B&W are two different system. C41 and E6 are closed system, not mix and match like B&W. With B&W you can pick a developer that can replenished, Extol, D76, DK50, to name just few. Other developers are one and done. To complicate matters some developers that be replenished stock, when diluted become a one and done. D76 1:1 and 1:2 are one and one. Stop bath and fixer have a given amount of capacity, the manufacture's data sheet will list the number of rolls or square inches of film that a given stop bath, fixer, clearing agent will process.
If you are using Adox or a Rondinal developer it is one and done, dump it. If you are using Extol or D76 stock you can replenish following the guide lines. Issue is not many replenishes are still being made, Xtol uses stock to replenish Although D76 cannot be replenished a gallon will develop a lot of film, when used at 1:2 a lot of film. dused not sure how many rolls, you do add time after a given number of rolls. Unless you are shooting a lot of film I think a one and done developer is the best way to go. For fix, I mix a gallon at a time and use what is called hypo check to make sure it is not exhausted. Hyp clearing is so cheap I just dump, Stop bath turns blue when used up. Photoflow for me is one and done. I currently use Kodak HC 110, it is one and done, in the past I have Clayton F76+ 1:9 one and done.

 

[koraks]

I guess I was curious to understand why it can process three rolls in a row properly but takes a 180 turn after two days and barely produces any results at all all of a sudden

It probably oxidizes under influence of air on the liquid/air interface as well as dissolved oxygen in the water. I think/assume FX-39 is an ascorbate developer which relies heavily on the activity of sodium ascorbate (like XTOL and several others). Ascorbate developers are very prone to 'sudden death'. C41 developer contains hydroxylammonium sulfate which is an effective anti-oxidant under even relatively adverse conditions.

Personally I do reuse B&W developer for prints, only. I mostly use ID62 presently (previously ID78), in a 1+2 working strength from concentrate (which is a quite strong dilution) stored in a glass bottle. I replenish it upon use, which maintains its strength. However, since it's very difficult to maintain constant activity of a developer used this way, I don't use this for film and wouldn't recommend it. It'll work, but the results will fluctuate in terms of degree of development. If you find this acceptable (I suspect you might, given your 30 rolls of color film per liter in C41), it's a viable option.

 

[wiltw]

The manufacturer's description is indicative of their intention for use...

"Well-suited for school photography because of the high equalizing power, low toxicity (no GLS labeling necessary) and ease of use (liquid one-shot developer).​

Standard dilution 1+9 is used as a “one shot” developer."​

​

NOT stored in a bottle in working dilution, for re-use.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

As noted my MattKing, Color and B&W are two different system. C41 and E6 are closed system, not mix and match like B&W. With B&W you can pick a developer that can replenished, Extol, D76, DK50, to name just few. Other developers are one and done. To complicate matters some developers that be replenished stock, when diluted become a one and done. D76 1:1 and 1:2 are one and one. Stop bath and fixer have a given amount of capacity, the manufacture's data sheet will list the number of rolls or square inches of film that a given stop bath, fixer, clearing agent will process.
If you are using Adox or a Rondinal developer it is one and done, dump it. If you are using Extol or D76 stock you can replenish following the guide lines. Issue is not many replenishes are still being made, Xtol uses stock to replenish Although D76 cannot be replenished a gallon will develop a lot of film, when used at 1:2 a lot of film. dused not sure how many rolls, you do add time after a given number of rolls. Unless you are shooting a lot of film I think a one and done developer is the best way to go. For fix, I mix a gallon at a time and use what is called hypo check to make sure it is not exhausted. Hyp clearing is so cheap I just dump, Stop bath turns blue when used up. Photoflow for me is one and done. I currently use Kodak HC 110, it is one and done, in the past I have Clayton F76+ 1:9 one and done.

For consistency and quality, I highly recommend one-shot chemistry. I use D76 mixed 1+1 with water , use it once and then dump it. What may look like a lot of waste at first sight will guarantee very consistent andrepeatable results;well worth it.

 

[wiltw]

Consulting a Kodak darkroom dataguide from 60 years ago, one can see that

1. Developer in 'stock solution' have longer keeping times than the same developer diluted to 'working solution'.
   the same principle about keeing times applies also to stopp bath and to fixer.
2. Also, the CAPACITY of the same quantity of developer to properly develop a certain quantity of film varies depending upon the specific kind of developer;
   similarly the capacity of stop bath and (to a lesser degree) of fixer can be different with specific type of stop bath or type of fixer.

 

[reddesert]

To test whether a B&W developer is still good without risking a roll of film, you can do a "clip test" where you take a small piece of exposed film, like a B&W 35mm film leader, and dunk it in a small cup of developer in room light for a few minutes. You can then fix it, although I think typically you can tell even without fixing - the exposed film should be black, like nearly opaque when held up to a light. If it isn't, the developer is bad and will ruin your film. A similar test with fixer, testing whether it clears an undeveloped bit of film, tells if your fixer is exhausted.

I have found that stock solutions of developer can last fairly long in a bottle without air (I use 1L plastic seltzer-type bottles and squeeze as much air out as possible). Working solutions don't last, and I typically used D-76 or Xtol (or a copy like Eco Pro) one-shot: dilute, use, discard. B&W developer is cheap. I reuse the stop and fixer per manufacturer's recommendations.

 

[MattKing]

For clarity, and in case you decide to do further reading, some developers - for example - are or were designed to be usable in a number of different ways.
One example is D76.
One can use D76 diluted one shot.
Or one can use and reuse stock solution - with a bit of reduction in quality - if one observes the instructions about lengthening the time more and more as you re-use it more and more, until you reached a limit.
Or historically, Kodak used to make D76 replenisher, which permitted one to re-use D76 many, many times, as long as one used it in a carefully measured and controlled replenishment regime.
I bring all this up because when you read something out there about how many rolls someone used their developer for, it is important to understand which developer they are using and in what way they used it: diluted one shot, stock solution strength re-used with lengthening times, used with replenisher in a replenishment regime, or ????

 

[Paul Howell]

Just too add another dimension, when a developer is diluted, such as D76 or MIcrodol X the solvent in the developers diluted, meaning the grain is not reduced as much, larger grain, but the negative will have a shaper appearance, as the ragged edges between the gain is smaller leaving a "smother edge". Like Ralph I have used D76 stock and 1:1 and quite liked the results. I now use HC 110 as it last a long time, I just shoot that film to use a gallon of D76 in 6 months to a year. Rodinal clones will also last, but not as long as the old Agfa Rodinal formula. Photographers Formulary sells a version of D76 in a liter kit.

 

[f/Alex]

With regards to reuse chemicals that may potentially be meant for one-shot use, I have been processing large format over the past two months with Pyrocat HD, diluted at 1+1+100. My results have been that while there is a falloff in terms of effectiveness it's a very minimum falloff, since I stand develop, this don't become particularly relevant.

Whilst reusing chemicals with a developer such as Pyrocat is not entirely necessary, in that the chemicals are not that expensive in their base form, disposal is always an issue, and I'd much prefer to not put carcinogens down my apartment sink, in case my landlord figures out what I'm doing with that 2nd bathroom.

The experience I've had is that I can judge the effectiveness of chemicals based on color. If they're entirely brown/black they're bad. I have been using accordion bottles to store, but I cannot even claim to keeping them at a reasonable temperature. It's hot out, and with ConEd charging 21c/KWh I ain't payin to keep the room I use cool.

Over 2 months I'm on my 2nd batch of developer, 1st batch of fixer (Although I suspect I ought to replace my fix). With that I've processed maybe 10 or 12 sheets of 4x5, and the fix has been applied to maybe 16 contact prints of 5x7 paper. Overall. I have had a positive experience with reusing pyrocat, and the fixer I obtained from photographer's formulary, but I cannot vouch for the reuse-ability of other chemicals. In the past I've used Sprint in my universities darkroom, which I've used exclusively as a one-shot.

 

[f/Alex]

Brief Follow up: i'd imagine you may be able to mix your developers with glycol instead of water which might increase the keep time?

Edit: do not take this as advice, I have no clue if this would mess with the stability of the chemicals, but I do know that the concentrate I buy is in glycol.

 

[xkaes]

Whilst reusing chemicals with a developer such as Pyrocat is not entirely necessary, in that the chemicals are not that expensive in their base form, disposal is always an issue, and I'd much prefer to not put carcinogens down my apartment sink, in case my landlord figures out what I'm doing with that 2nd bathroom.

I'm pretty sure that no matter what you put down the drain, it's probably a lot less harmful than what goes down the drains in other apartments. You would be shocked if you knew!

 

[Augustus Caesar]

Thank you for taking the time.
Unfortunately I cannot find much from the manufacturer's about reusing the Adox FX-39.
I guess I was curious to understand why it can process three rolls in a row properly but takes a 180 turn after two days and barely produces any results at all all of a sudden, if it is the air in the bottle making it go bad or another factor.

FX-39 is a one-shot developer. Do not try to re-use it.

 

[fabulousrice]

Thanks everyone for your help! One-shot developer - won't reuse! Noted

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Film developers are generally of two types: one-shot and replenished. Most low-volume film processors use developer one-shot. FX-39 is in that category, as are many others. Sometimes you can process a second or third roll/batch in used developer by extending the developing time (D-76 is an example). Keeping used developers like this is out of the question.

Replenished developers have to be protected from oxidation and replenished with a replenisher solution or stock developer in a volume-per-amount-of-film-developed regime. Xtol is an example of a developer that can be used both one-shot and replenished.

Stop bath longevity depends mostly on throughput. A liter of stop will fix many films/prints. Citric-acid stop baths don't keep well because they can grow bacterial slime or mold. Acetic-acid stop baths keep much longer. Use the manufacturers' recommendations for throughput capacities.

Fixers are similar. Limiting factors are throughput and degradation due to oxidation. Remember that fixer used to fix film should not be used to fix prints. A liter of fixer like Ilford Rapid Fixer will fix many films/prints. Use the manufacturers' throughput capacities and shelf-life recommendations. You can find the info for Ilford Rapid Fixer here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...MQFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1UtnsEwdWtEiUcSXh1Asni . It applies to other similar fixers.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Once you have diluted the stock developer down to a working solution (1+9 in your case), its shelf life is quite short. It's basically a one shot developer at that point, and has to be tossed after use.

 

[cmacd123]

the data sheet is in German, But they specifically call out "One Shot" use in english. https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/adox_tech/FX-39-II-Datasheet.pdf

you can probably use Google translate on each paragraph is you need more details.

ok, Freestyle has most of the data sheet in their decription of the product.. https://www.freestylephoto.com/33830-Adox-FX-39-II-Film-Developer-500-ml

 

[snusmumriken]

I may be overly predictable in promoting Barry Thornton's 2-bath developer yet again, but it offers you substantially longer shelf life because the two working solutions hold the developing agent and alkali separately, and are re-used. I keep mine in 1 litre bottles until they have processed their expected capacity, but this can take several months or even a year. Stop bath keeps well after dilution, and the indicator will tell you when it needs replacing. Ilford Rapid Fixer keeps for months after dilution, and has a high capacity, but I generally discard all my chemicals together when Bath A of the developer has reached its capacity (theoretically about fourteen 36-exp 35mm films). I now replace Bath B of the developer several times during this cycle because of carry-over, but it's very cheap and easy to mix.

Of course, you may be wedded to FX-39 for some reason...

 

[fabulousrice]

I may be overly predictable in promoting Barry Thornton's 2-bath developer yet again, but it offers you substantially longer shelf life because the two working solutions hold the developing agent and alkali separately, and are re-used. I keep mine in 1 litre bottles until they have processed their expected capacity, but this can take several months or even a year. Stop bath keeps well after dilution, and the indicator will tell you when it needs replacing. Ilford Rapid Fixer keeps for months after dilution, and has a high capacity, but I generally discard all my chemicals together when Bath A of the developer has reached its capacity (theoretically about fourteen 36-exp 35mm films). I now replace Bath B of the developer several times during this cycle because of carry-over, but it's very cheap and easy to mix.

Of course, you may be wedded to FX-39 for some reason...

I'm definitely not married to the FX-39 - I just like that it costs $9 and it's a one-bottle developper.
Do you use the Barry Thornton dev? How long is it for each bath? Does it also come with a fixing step?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I'm definitely not married to the FX-39 - I just like that it costs $9 and it's a one-bottle developper.
Do you use the Barry Thornton dev? How long is it for each bath? Does it also come with a fixing step?

I have been using Thornton's 2-bath for a while now. Depending on the film, it's about 4 to 5 min in each bath. After the second bath, you stop and fix as per normal.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Here's the formula I use (store in separate bottles):

Bath A
Metol 6.5g
Sodium Sulphite 80g
Water to 1 litre

Bath B
Sodium Metaborate 12g
Water to 1 litre

 

[snusmumriken]

I have been using Thornton's 2-bath for a while now. Depending on the film, it's about 4 to 5 min in each bath. After the second bath, you stop and fix as per normal.

I use 4+4min for FP4 and 5+5 min for HP5+, all at 23deg C, or adjusted for any variation in temperature. This suits my enlarger and printing style, but it’s a fair starting point. I use a plain water rinse rather than stop, but either works.