Understanding exposure, whats your method?

jaffa_777 · Dec 23, 2008

I am interested to know your method of exposure and developing mainly for B&W. Every one seems to have their methods of determining exposure from simple to elaborate.

The reason I ask is that the method I use seems to get me good to great results most of the time, but I am not sure I really understad why? I am aslo asking because soon I will be starting to develop my own films.

My method is with films like trix and hp5, -

* put my incedent meter at around 200-320. (200 for a more contrasty scene, 320 for a flatter scene).
* use the incident meter in the shadow areas of the scene to determine my shutter speed at my desired depth of field.
* shoot.
* note the speed down on the film and give to my pro lab to develop

When I read peoples different methods of determing exposure for a well balenced neg, their are so many different views and methods, does it seem like we are all taking different round abouts to end up at the same destination?

Whats your method and how does it work for you?

Dan Henderson · Dec 23, 2008

I shoot at box speed, use a spotmeter, place shadows on Zone III, and use a developer and developing method that lets me control the highlights. But what does that matter? As long as your system works for you and you are getting the results you want, stick with it.

Pinholemaster · Dec 23, 2008

Meters simply compare the scene to 18% gray. If you aim your meter at something that isn't 18% gray, the exposure recommended with turn that object to 18%.

The first thing to learn is how to evaluate a scene.

Also, your exposure does NOT influence contrast. Development controls contrast, not where you place your ISO on the meter.

You incident meter is design not to be fooled by the gray scale of an object. You simply need to place the meter in the same light as your subject to establish the correct exposure of 18% in that particular light.

When in doubt, bracket your exposure.

Get Harry Horenstein's book on Basic Photography. I have all my college students read it. http://www.amazon.com/Black-White-P...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230036296&sr=8-1

Claire Senft · Dec 23, 2008

Firstly, Jaffa welcome to apug. I use an incident meter. I use the system "the Incident System" as stated in the BTZS by Phillip Davis. I use it with 35mm film without the development options.

The incident meter, has its film speed set a 2x the film speed that you have found usable. Then with the meter point toward the camera the reading is taken either in a major shadow area or the shadow of your body. The meter cell should be entirely shadowed. Normally, I use my body's shadow. The reasonm that twice the film speed is being used is because you want to compensate for being in the shadow. I take the reading, transfer it to my camera and shoot. It was REALLY very nicely.

For films such as Trix or HP% I would use a trial setting of 640 to start...this is the equivalent of using a film speed of 320.

It may be worthwhile to test your meters response by pointing the dome directly at the unobscured sun between 10am - 2pm with the meter dome not being in the shadow on a bright day. Set the film speed to 125. You should get a reading of 1/125@f16 or a comparable value. If you are working with clean snow on the ground then 1/250th @f16 is to be expected.

If your meter is correct then I believe that using the reading in the shadow with a film speed of 200 with Tri-x is going to give you 1 1/2 stops of overexposure.

jaffa_777 · Dec 23, 2008

Thanks Claire for your welcome.

I have just been messing about with the spot meter in my digital slr, and noticed that if I meter the shadows in a scene and then stop down about 1&1/2 to 2 stops the blacks and shadows in the scene are recorded correctly. I also noticed that using the incident meter (at the same iso as the camera) pointed at the camera gives close to the same result.

So now I have got the shadows where I want them, would the correct developing process be to work out how far the highlights were away from the shadows and develop acordingly. IE contrasty scene with specular highlights needs less development and flat scenes would need more development?

I'll look out for that book Walter, thanks.

Erik Petersson · Dec 23, 2008

I have started guessing exposure, and it is very rewarding. And it works!

Brandon D. · Dec 23, 2008

Incident metering where ever possible.

Sometimes spot metering or educated guessing. But the incident meter is the primary method where possible because I don't have to worry as much about it being tricked or fooled.

Chuck_P · Dec 24, 2008

jaffa_777 said:
So now I have got the shadows where I want them, would the correct developing process be to work out how far the highlights were away from the shadows and develop acordingly. IE contrasty scene with specular highlights needs less development and flat scenes would need more development?

If you take this approach i.e., "placing" the shadows where you want them on the exposure scale by stopping down 2 stops (this would be zone III because you know that meter is returning zone V for any metered surface), then the development would depend on where the important highlight "falls" on the exposure scale. IMO, this approach is best used with a spot meter (I and many folks have good success with this method). So, you would need to know how far apart your "placement" of the shadow is from where the desired highlight "landed" on the exposure scale. Generally, the important high values where you want to retain full texture, about zone VII, or slightly lighter but perhaps less texture, about zone VIII, is the decision maker on how you will develop the film. I personally use VIII as the decision maker, others may standardize differently in their testing.

This can be done using the box speed, IMO, if you have no inclination to learn how to refine this process by testing. If you continually find that, while using the box speed, your zone II or III placements i.e., your 2 or 3 stop reductions in exposure to the shadow area is appearing a too dark to qualify as a good zone II or III (this is telling you that with your own dev process and equipment you are experiencing a loss of film speed which is equating to wasted density in the shadows), then try rating the film one full stop lower to compensate for that loss of speed. This will beef up the density in the shadows, but you will have to most likely reduce the development time to keep the high values in check. When using T-grain films, maybe first try your film speed adjustments in 1/3 stop increments instead of full stops, JMO and they are less forgiving of sloppy developing habits.

IMO, I would not base my development plans off a specular highlight----a specular highlight will appear near or at paper base white and thus should not be expected to hold contrast and detail, and should probably not occupy large areas of the final picture, IMO, but that's a personal choice, of course.

I would start out at the box speed, see what happens, but your frustration will come by having a hard time keeping track of how many zones separate the shadow "placement" from where the main highvalue "falls"-----this is where a spot meter fitted with a zone scale is of great value. If the highlight "falls" on zone VIII, for example, try developing normally i.e., without testing this would be the manufacturer's time. If the important high value falls above zone VIII, reduce development by some percentage to try and get it to develop to a VIII negative density; if it falls on zone VII, you can increase the development to try and get that brightness to develop to VIII.

Willie Jan · Jan 5, 2009

Shoot at box speed (fuji acros film).

I too use a spotmeter and place dark shadows on Zone III. After that i check the other values in my scene to see what the highest value is.

If the highest value > Zone VII then i need to figure out if this item may be white on the print.
if I do need to have something in this area, i will have to maybe put the dark shadow in II, which will be black on the print.

If the highest value = Zone VII then the value is as i read if off from the spotmeter.

If the highest value < Zone VII then i put the complete contrast range around zone V.
For instance when the contrast is 2 stops, i put the darkest place in IV (lightest in VI)

I use pyrocat HD for developing.
Using a spotmeter is the most simple way to find the right value.
Be aware that spotmetering from a large distance could give incorrect information.
Also small white spots may not be easy to be read.

brofkand · Jan 5, 2009

I'm currently reading The Negative. Hopefully this book will help me learn all I need to know about exposure.

naeroscatu · Jan 5, 2009

IMHO after using all kinds of empirical methods with less than mediocre results (I mean poor negs followed by intense darkroom recovery work...) I finally got my hands on books/ DVDs about technique, specifically the Zone system (The Negative by AA and Zone VI workshop by Fred Picker plus his DVD) and decided to cut on the guessing and get real. Testing the films you are using with your equipment (camera, lens, developer, agitation, enlarger, etc) and getting the proof prints is the most tedious part of the process but unfortunately the only way to get a decent result and eventually a fine print. I'm half way down this road and so far I improved my negs considerably just by learning how to use the spotmeter and applying the zone system. My new year's resolution is to get a handle on printing. Then a new journey begins when your mind is released from technical details and focuses on creativity (if any - speaking for myself ).

JBrunner · Jan 5, 2009

jaffa_777 said:
I am interested to know your method of exposure and developing mainly for B&W. Every one seems to have their methods of determining exposure from simple to elaborate.

The reason I ask is that the method I use seems to get me good to great results most of the time, but I am not sure I really understad why? I am aslo asking because soon I will be starting to develop my own films.

My method is with films like trix and hp5, -

* put my incedent meter at around 200-320. (200 for a more contrasty scene, 320 for a flatter scene).
* use the incident meter in the shadow areas of the scene to determine my shutter speed at my desired depth of field.
* shoot.
* note the speed down on the film and give to my pro lab to develop

When I read peoples different methods of determing exposure for a well balenced neg, their are so many different views and methods, does it seem like we are all taking different round abouts to end up at the same destination?

Whats your method and how does it work for you?

You are basically practicing a sort of Cliffs Notes version of the first half of the zone system. That is about what I do with roll film, but sometimes I might expose for a highlight and to hell with the shadows if it fits my pre-visualization. Zone System practices tell me where I can expect things to fall in regard to any tone I might assign to a specific thing. For large format work I practice the Zone System in its entirety. If and when you start doing your own development with sheet film you can close the circle.

Chuck_P · Jan 5, 2009

naeroscatu said:
IMHO after using all kinds of empirical methods with less than mediocre results (I mean poor negs followed by intense darkroom recovery work...)

Click to expand...

I was there once, led to nothing but frustration and constant uncertainty and waste.

....decided to cut on the guessing and get real.

Click to expand...

There are no shortcuts to learning it, and learning it well. Once learned well, any shortcuts taken, like JBrunner does in 35mm, are readily found and very intuitive.

Maris · Jan 5, 2009

Ages ago I used to adopt a formal zone system approach using Minor White's "Zone system Manual", 1963 edition ($1.95 cover price!) for all my large format negatives. But things have changed.

Modern black and white films accept N+1 and N-1 processing but N+2 or N-2 results seem to be a limit that is difficult to get to and underwhelming when achieved. The fact that my camera usually has "modified grain" film in it and the routine developer is Xtol may be another reason why. An extra crucial factor is the availability of good variable contrast enlarging paper.

Changing paper grades one or two contrast steps is an effective alternative for changing negative contrast range by one or two zones. No, the results are not exactly the same but they are darn close. And my photography is not balanced on a knife-edge so fine that a slight tonal shift is going to turn all my trash into treasure or vice versa.

So what do I do now? Answer: Maximum Usable Exposure. Not "Maximum Exposure", that would be crazy, but I want the most that I can give without losing worthwhile textural information at the top end of the exposure scale. The idea is reminiscent of the old Fred Picker mantra "Put the high value on zone VIII and accept what you get elsewhere. At least it will be as high up the exposure scale as it can be and the negative will contain as much information as will fit in it."

In practice, with large format film, even Zones IX, X, XI (and even further with 8x10) preserve texture information so the limitation tends to be how thick a negative do I want to work with. Remember, negatives are only the subject matter for what happens next.

Distilled down the plan comes to: "Expose the dark part of the subject on no less than zone IV, give N development, let the highlights blow out as high as they like, retrieve important highlight detail using paper grades."

Working with dense negatives opens up the concept that not all highlight detail is "important". I routinely let the top 10% of my highlights go to paper white. The areas involved are small, the eye does not expect to see detail in such small areas, but the sense of brilliance and luminosity is carried through convincingly.

2F/2F · Jan 5, 2009

When time allows for things to be ideal (still lifes, interiors), I use incident readings, and back them up with spot readings to measure the overall contrast range. If the contrast range is too great for what I want, I use a blind pull; that is, without actually placing tones, I overexpose the incident reading, and underdevelop. If the contrast range is not great, I usually do the opposite.

These subjects are rare for me, however. They don't do much for me, and there are others who are far better and far more interested who should go ahead and do them rather than myself.

When time is a tad bit more of the essence, but not extremely so (usually tripod shots in natural light), I forgo the two meter approach and use a reflected meter (spot usually, but in-camera if I am close enough to treat the 12% metering patch as a spot meter). I place a low luminance value where I want it. I usually make placements at zone I, II, or III, depending on what I want. Then I will take the shot so I don't miss the light that attracted me in the first place, and take various other readings afterward so I can figure out how to develop the film to get the tones that fell on zone V and up where I want them to be.

If I just want a quick reading while out and about (handheld, walking around stuff, or doing a planned shot of a person), without worrying about being exact with tones and contrast, I bring my incident meter. If the light is flat, I uprate my film and develop accordingly. If the light is super harsh, I downrate my film and develop accordingly.

In most cases, for the pix I really love (totally unplanned stuff found while walking/driving around), I use the sunny 16 rule and my memory of past experiences, which is more like the sunny 11 to 13 rule around these parts. I find this gives the best over all balance between between grabbing the right moment and getting the desired exposure.

For digital, I usually use one of the last two methods, except I underexpose in harsh light and overexpose in flat light, because you don't have the same development options that you have with film.

waileong · Jan 5, 2009

Exposure measurement for negs is simple: meter the shadows.

If there's enough time to do a contrast reading, I can meter the highlights as well, that will tell me if I need to push or pull the development. But with roll film, unless one expends the entire roll in the same light, there's usually a variety of scenes with different contrasts in the same roll, so it's usually better to use standard development and use paper grades to control contrast during printing.

I suggest you develop yourself, it's faster, cheaper and you can get what you want.

jaffa_777 said:
I am interested to know your method of exposure and developing mainly for B&W. Every one seems to have their methods of determining exposure from simple to elaborate.

The reason I ask is that the method I use seems to get me good to great results most of the time, but I am not sure I really understad why? I am aslo asking because soon I will be starting to develop my own films.

My method is with films like trix and hp5, -

* put my incedent meter at around 200-320. (200 for a more contrasty scene, 320 for a flatter scene).
* use the incident meter in the shadow areas of the scene to determine my shutter speed at my desired depth of field.
* shoot.
* note the speed down on the film and give to my pro lab to develop

When I read peoples different methods of determing exposure for a well balenced neg, their are so many different views and methods, does it seem like we are all taking different round abouts to end up at the same destination?

Whats your method and how does it work for you?

Sirius Glass · Jan 8, 2009

If I am in a hurry I will take a reading without the sky and use that exposure. I can always burn the sky in when I am printing the black and white negative.

Steve

Arvee · Jan 8, 2009

Jason B,

When you are using the Zone System here in UT, how do you deal with those super contrasty days during summer, when there is a nine plus stop subject brightness range? I have tried making this work with n-2 development and end up with really crappy, flat negs.

Or, do you not go out unless the contrast ratio is civil?

I think I read somewhere that Fred Picker, late in life, only shot on those days that were cooperative and then metered for the highlights.

-Fred

removed account4 · Jan 8, 2009

hi jaffa_777 welcome!

i never use a spot meter ...
for personal "stuff" i sunny 16-it
or shoot everything at 1/15S wide open
(depending on the camera )
it all gets steeped in a coffee based developer,
with a few oz of straight ansco 130 for about 25-30mins. then washed and fixed.
i get expected results ...

for things that are more formal ...
i use an incident meter. set it for a stop over exposed ( so 400 film to 200 et C )
if it is a general scene i just meter it,
if the scene has varied light and shadow, like a streetscape, or interior
i will evaluate the scene by going to the brightest area and the darkest shadow area
and and depending on how much of the scene is engulfed
in shadow or light i average the two readings and then over or expose more or less .. depending ...
i'm not a zonie, but i guess i expose and process my film sometimes
using a similar technique ...

all my film that i use a meter with, gets processed the same way. it is usually 4x5 or larger,
and i tray develop it. after about 8.5 minutes in the soup ( ansco 130 ) i inspect it with a green safelight
to see if i need to process it a little more. i might, or i might not ... after that, i go in the water bath
for about 1-2 mins, then fix it ....

good luck and have fun!

john

rbergeman · Jan 8, 2009

i've found that dick arentz' sbr (subject brightness range) system has been working well for me (using sheet film) ....... i switched over about four or five years ago from the zone system, which i had used since the 80s but gave up due to inconsistent results with developments beyond n-1 .... arentz' sbr system ties both development times and iso to the contrast range of the scene (obtained by spot metering shadow and highlight)..... altho i had to reduce the dev. times considerably (based on experience, not densitometers) from those on his original charts, the results are now predictable and trustworthy ..... as for the exposure itself, i generally set the important shadow on zone IV ..... arentz charts can be found in his book 'platinum & palladium printing' .... his charts are based on densities for pt/pd printing, but the concept is good and it should be applicable to silver if modified by reducing the times ..... if it's of interest to anyone, here's my personal chart for tri-x developed in d-76, for example:

SBR........ISO.......DEV TIME/DIL./TEMP
4 ............400........12m/str/74
5............ 400........10m/str/70
6.............380........8.5m/str/70 (alt. = 12m/1:1/70)
7.............250........9.5m/1:1/70
8.............200........ 8.25m/1:1/70
9.............125.........7m/1:1/70
10............100........5.75m/1:1/70
11 (rare)....80.........4.5m/1:1/70
12 (v.rare)..64.........6m/1:3/70

seems like a lot of numbers, but for me it's been simpler than the zone system .....

rich

Arvee · Jan 8, 2009

Thanks for that info, Rich. I will look into it.

-Fred

JBrunner · Jan 8, 2009

Fred Aspen said:
Jason B,

When you are using the Zone System here in UT, how do you deal with those super contrasty days during summer, when there is a nine plus stop subject brightness range? I have tried making this work with n-2 development and end up with really crappy, flat negs.

Or, do you not go out unless the contrast ratio is civil?

I think I read somewhere that Fred Picker, late in life, only shot on those days that were cooperative and then metered for the highlights.

-Fred

The limit is what the film can deliver, and we are pretty lucky with B&W. Pyro helps squeeze a little more, but sometimes I find something I like, and the light isn't cooperating. If I like it a lot, I'll just wait, or come back in the morning.

Understanding exposure, whats your method?

jaffa_777

Dan Henderson

Pinholemaster

Claire Senft

jaffa_777

Erik Petersson

Brandon D.

Chuck_P

Willie Jan

brofkand

naeroscatu

JBrunner

Moderator

Chuck_P

Maris

2F/2F

waileong

Sirius Glass

Arvee

removed account4

rbergeman

Arvee

JBrunner

Moderator

Understanding exposure, whats your method?

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