Understanding dr.5 Process

marsbars · Feb 14, 2007

I have been looking at trying a couple of rolls in the dr.5 process as I prefer slides over negatives. The thing that I am having trouble getting my head around is if I am shooting Pan F iso 50 they recommend shooting it at iso 25. After reading a bunch of the different film reviews I noticed that they recommend a rather large overexposure for the films they list as good in the process. Could someone help me to understand why overexposure is desired to get BW film. Some of the suggested iso's end up with up to 2 stops OE. This might be a simple explanation but I haven't figured it out yet.

dr5chrome · Feb 14, 2007

hello;

I can give you a quick summery;

Think of all the film we run as new films. The process changes all the films run in the process. you must also remember to shoot as you would E6, as a positive. Don't shoot as you would a negative.

Depending on the reversal B&W process, most require more exposure than the factory speed.

many of the films run in dr5 can be exposed at the factory speed, HP5, FP4, TX TMAX100, all the EFKE films, are examples.

PANf is one of those films that need an adjustment. Normal for this film is 20-25 iso. You can shoot this film to 10iso to give better detail in deep shadow. PANf can have up an 11 stop range in this process without loosing detail in the blacks or the whites. 32-80iso will produce higher than normal contrast and might become difficult to scan.

dw

www.dr5.com

Paul Sorensen · Feb 14, 2007

I don't know a great deal about the dr5 process, but remember that any change in developer can change the effective speed of the film. What you see on the box is merely the company's suggestion for the correct film speed. You may find that a different speed will be appropriate for a different developer. Since dr5 is basically a different developer, one that happens to create positives rather than negatives, there will be a recommended film speed that will possibly differ from box speed.

Ian Grant · Feb 14, 2007

The dr-5 process itself is not unique and it is quite easy to reversal process B&W film yourself at home. There are various commercial kits available and also many excellent published formulae.

There is much less call now for B&W slides, 30 or 40 years ago they were very common as teaching aids in schools etc, some of us remember the old filmstrip projectors

However saying that people still want B&W slides and dr5 as acompany is offering a controlled processing line to ensure consistant results, that in itself is fairly uniwue as the only other similar lines were dedicated to Agfa Scala.

Ian

Hervé V. · Feb 14, 2007

reversal process is not easy, with a kit or with personal receipt . you'll have to ruin a lot of films before the first good results appear .
Dr5 has a stabilised process that gives constant results, it's a good solution if you prefer use your time to take pictures than to make experiences in your lab

dr5chrome · Feb 14, 2007

..i will have to correct you Ian. dr5 'is' unique. reversal processing 'is' common.
recipe, procedure & machine make dr5 as unique as Kodachrome, as E6, as the scala process. They are all different, and unique.

thanks, Paul. that is a very good Summation.

dw

www.dr5.com

Ian Grant said:
The dr-5 process itself is not unique and it is quite easy to reversal process B&W film yourself at home. There are various commercial kits available and also many excellent published formulae.

Ian

3Dfan · Feb 14, 2007

In the case of foma 200 (the only film I've had the chance to test in dr5 so far), it runs at 200 in dr5 in spite of the fact that it is normally considered a 125 speed negative film in normal developers. So some films gain rather than lose speed in dr5.

Since this thread has Mr. Wood's attention, I'd like to ask a few questions myself. At what speed should I rate lucky 100 for a test? I'd also like to try another normal 200 speed film, how does the grain of foma 200 compare with neopan 400 and delta 400? Thanks.

HerrBremerhaven · Feb 14, 2007

Just wanted to add into this thread that I got back some Ilford HP5+ from DR5 recently. I shot both a 120 roll, and a roll of 35mm. Since I have shot HP5+ normally as a negative film, I can state that the tonal range is different with processing this film in DR5 than it is from more normal processing as negatives. I went exactly on the DR5 recommendations for ISO, and I am pleased with the results.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
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marsbars · Feb 14, 2007

Thanks all for the explanations. Guess I will have to give it a try.

Rick Olson · Feb 14, 2007

Marsbars ... I too have used this process for the past few years, mostly with HP-5. In fact, my avatar is an HP-5 image processed using DR-5. I photograph steam railroads and it's a real treat to shoot HP-5 at 800-1000 and get the great detail when dealing with the motion of steam trains. I have also used other film for still shots (Efke 25, Ilford FP-4) and the images were spectacular. Try a random lot of film to test out the tonal range and then send it off to DR-5. This way you can select the film that gives you the "look" you want. This is fun stuff. Good luck!!

Rick

chrisf · Feb 14, 2007

I was wondering how you guys are printing your dr5 chromes? I recently bought a 120 folder and was thinking about sending this film through dr5.

chris

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 14, 2007

I haven't done this yet, but I was thinking of trying it with medium format so I can make enlarged negs for albumen printing from the chromes.

dr5chrome · Feb 14, 2007

we haven't done too much testing with the lucky film. we have had a few clients test it however. you can shoot it at it's factory speed, 100iso. it runs a little on the flat side but id fairly responsive.

the FOMA 200 is a very nice film! the quality is between that of TMAX100 & DELTA 100. a T grain film is very sharp for a 200 speed and you would shoot it @ 200iso normal. it is sharper than Scala but flatter, making it easier to produce enlarged negs and scans.

neopan400 and DELTA-400 have a unique look. i would only recommend these films if you were looking for an unusual looking film. NEO400 can only be run as sepia [cant go neutral]. both have a normal of 200 in dr5.

if you need speed use HP5. it has the best EI range in the process and holds quality to 1600 iso.

CIBAchromes produce great quality from dr5 chromes. most of our client base go straight to scan however. the chromes are much easier to scan than negs.

DG; we have had many new clients use dr5 for this purpose, to loose a generation when making negs for contact printing. we have also seen a big increase in interpositives. you expose the large film and we run it,, a big neg from your original negs. we have had clients send us prints from this procedure, not less than spectacular quality.

thanks for the support over the years Rick!

dw

www.dr5.com

3Dfan said:
In the case of foma 200 (the only film I've had the chance to test in dr5 so far), it runs at 200 in dr5 in spite of the fact that it is normally considered a 125 speed negative film in normal developers. So some films gain rather than lose speed in dr5.

Since this thread has Mr. Wood's attention, I'd like to ask a few questions myself. At what speed should I rate lucky 100 for a test? I'd also like to try another normal 200 speed film, how does the grain of foma 200 compare with neopan 400 and delta 400? Thanks.

3Dfan · Feb 14, 2007

That tells me what I need to know. I'll focus my next round of testing on HP5 and FP4. I can definitely vouch that the foma 200 looks great in your process. It makes for nice stereo slides.

MMfoto · Feb 15, 2007

dr5chrome, off the subject, what prevents some films like Acros or APX 400 from being successfully developed in DR5?

dr5chrome · Feb 15, 2007

..i am not 100% certain on the acros. we have only determined that it has some layer in it that prevents the bleach step from working. its a shame, it's a nice film as a neg.

dw

MMfoto said:
dr5chrome, off the subject, what prevents some films like Acros or APX 400 from being successfully developed in DR5?

HerrBremerhaven · Feb 15, 2007

Since bleach is involved in the process, is there a way to do a bleach free process? The reason I ask is that there is a unique look possible with some motion picture films when doing a bleach free run, though the only examples I have seen were colour. The television show 24 uses a bleach free processing effect for many of their scenes, especially the night shots, in case anyone is wondering about the effect.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
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Photo Engineer · Feb 15, 2007

Bleach free processes are only useful for negative color. Reversal processes of any type suffer badly (color or B&W) from the lack of a bleach.

PE

HerrBremerhaven · Feb 15, 2007

The information I read on motion picture films is that the bleach free step could be done on the negative or the print.

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/inCamera/april2002/kt.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/skip.jhtml?id=0.1.4.15.4.14&lc=en

Seems there is less risk doing the bleach free (or bleach bypass) on the print than on the negative. I have also heard this from a handful of cinematographers that I know have tried this processing. Obviously the results will not be as realistic.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
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PHOTOTONE · Feb 15, 2007

HerrBremerhaven said:
The information I read on motion picture films is that the bleach free step could be done on the negative or the print.

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/inCamera/april2002/kt.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/skip.jhtml?id=0.1.4.15.4.14&lc=en

Seems there is less risk doing the bleach free (or bleach bypass) on the print than on the negative. I have also heard this from a handful of cinematographers that I know have tried this processing. Obviously the results will not be as realistic.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

Yes, as PE said...only works with the Negative color process...which would include the negative, or the print....the Negative color process.

Helen B · Feb 15, 2007

Perhaps a little more explanation: bleach bypass is used with materials that are normally developed to a dye-only image. It doesn't matter whether they are camera negative, interpositive, internegative or positive (=print, neg-pos) type materials, as long as they are not reversal materials.

With reversal colour materials there is an overall presence of silver before the bleach stage: the silver is there as both the original negative image and as the second positive image. If you wanted to get the bleach bypass look with colour reversal you would have to do the bleach in two stages - first bleach the silver negative image produced in the first developer (as would happen if you were doing B&W reversal) then partially bleach the positive silver image produced in the second developer.

Bleach bypass with B&W silver-image reversal processes is something that most of us who have experimented with reversal will have seen: insufficient bleaching is much like overall fog and the less bleaching the higher the fog. If you liked a very dark, slightly weird duotone look there might be some mileage in it - you can get the two images to have different tones.

Best,
Helen

HerrBremerhaven · Feb 15, 2007

Thanks for the explanation Helen.

HerrBremerhaven · Feb 15, 2007

Just wanted to add in a note for the original poster, and others considering using DR5. Your shipping costs can make this fairly expensive compared to other ways to have film processed. Just as an example, my mail out in a FedEx envelope (Ground) cost $4.55. Shipping back to me from Denver to San Diego was $19.23, because it required a box and was sent as 2-Day Ground. So don't be shocked by shipping charges, or wait until you have many rolls to process.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
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3Dfan · Feb 15, 2007

FedEx is not the only option. DR5 also can use the postal service. It's a lot cheaper.

HerrBremerhaven · Feb 15, 2007

Unfortunately in my situation, I was confused by the DR5 order form, and only circled FedEx Client Account. With what I understand now about that circled choice, that means a default of 2-Day FedEx. I don't mind using FedEx, and have an account, but I usually choose the slowest and least expensive method. If it had been FedEx Home Delivery, it would have been about half the cost coming back to me. What I also did not understand was DR5 had no way of knowing that I sent it by a low cost Ground through FedEx to them; meaning my assumption about them using a similar choice shipping back to me was incorrect. It is important to specify on the DR5 order form when you want lowest cost shipping. My confusion, and failure to do specify, cost me more than I expected.

Hopefully this clarification keeps someone else from making the same mistake I did. The results are unique and quite nice. I don't want to put anyone off on trying it; just be sure to fill out your order form correctly.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

Understanding dr.5 Process

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