Underdeveloped negs: is it possible under these conditions? Opinions needed.

Hi guys.

I have a rather vague and broad problem on my hands, and it's difficult to even pose the question, let alone giving an answer!
The matter is, I'm kind of creating quite constantly underdeveloped negs.
A bit of background:
- I'm using Rodinal, although the same tendency has appeared before;
- I've stabilised on FP4+ and HP5+, but I've used other films as well (recently a "scratch" roll of Delta 400, WAAAY underdeveloped);
- EI I use is 100 for FP4 and 250 for HP5;
- agitation first 30 secs, than 10 secs every minute (traditional inversions);
- Paterson tank;
- temperature control not ultra-tight, but I usually manage to recheck temp in the last minute and eventually correct the timing;

Now, my negatives show signs of underdevelopment even if I use the manufacturer recommended dev time for BOX SPEED. I mean, no 20% reduction when halving the EI, nothing.
The negs look already underdeveloped by sight (read-through test usually lets me clearly see words of a printed page beneath, even in darker areas; film markings varying from very faint to mmm-that-might-be-almost-fine-maybe).
When printing (diffusion enlarger, LPL6700) I usually need grade 3 to 4 to get it "reasonable".

Well, I think my main question is: "Is it possible to get underdeveloped negs using actually more than the dev time suggested by the charts? Or should I look somewhere else in my process? Am I doing something wrong or is it just a matter of time?"

Thanks for your valuable insights.
Marco

Are you still using the same bottle of Rodinal, or has that changed over time?

What sort of thermometer are you using, and have you checked it?

Have you tried intentionally increasing your development time for 20% on a test roll, to see what happens?

Just three things to check! Hope this helps.

Published development times are just a starting point. Its like the cooking time for a steak published in a cookbook. If you follow that time 'to the letter' your steak is likely to be over or under cooked.

If you are needing 3 to 4 grade then increase development time by 25%.

What concentration of rodinal are you using? And what time are you using for FP4+ at 20 C? I find that the listed time on the R09 One Shot (supposedly it is the same as rodinal) bottle is WAY high for FP4.

Also, your agitation scheme seems a little... high on the agitation. Which does not match, at all, your experience in printing.

I had the same problems as you with the same films.
I switched to ilfasol 3 and finally got it right. Rodinal was just not working for me contrast wise.
Temperature is important.
Since no one else here ever mentions it I feel like Ilfasol 3 might be a unsophisticated choice but it got my 8X10 negs to pint on a grade 2 finally.

I am also going to add that if your paper is older, it might affect things. I have 2-3 boxes of 4-year old paper I regularly use for lower-quality prints or contact sheets, and for the same negative, they all need grade 3-4 to do what I want at grade 2-3 on fresh paper.

Thanks, everybody,you're helpful as usual.

Paper is fresh, so I'd take that out. Furthermore the negs actually LOOK underdev'd.
Rodinal, same bottle, yes, but maybe 4 months old. Dilution I've been using is 1+50 and -for example- the time I used for FP4 (ei 100) is 12 minutes at 20C. These negs might look somewhere (just a guess, so take this with a grain of salt) between N-1 and N-2.
I'll definitely have to try some longer times, but it seemed quite weird, so I wanted to ask you if something was EVIDENTLY out of place...

Try mixing the developer with distilled or de-mineralized water. Also, make sure you don't have any cross-contamination problems.
Especially after those steps, if you aren't getting good solid edge markings, or developer may likely be bad.

What are you basing your assumption of under-development on? Is it possible that it is under-exposure instead?


Steve.

I know you are using the 12 min @ EI 100 from the Massive Dev Chart, but that seems wrong on the face of it. If the nominal speed is 125 and the nominal time is 15 min, a one stop reduction is EI 64, with a 20 % decrease to 12 min. On the other hand, 100 is only 1/3rd of a stop below 125.

What color is the rodinal? Fresh rodinal starts as a pink, translucent liquid and exposure to oxygen (in the bottle) makes it progressively darker. Urban legend says that this has no effect on developing, but I suspect that is bogus (it might have limited effect, though). If, however, the bottle has very little in it and a lot of air, and was left around for a while, it might be suboptimal.

For what it's worth, I use 13 minutes @ 20 C for inversion processing of FP4+ at EI125 and 1+50. I do not recommend that anyone else use this without testing, and it is with 4x5 sheet film in an inversion tank and my metering.

Steve: I've been considering your question myself carefully before, but as you know it's not so easy to answer.
Yet, I'll describe the last roll I've developed: lighting consisted of two strobes, a key light 45 degrees off my model and the fill close to camera position. Lighting ratio was about 1:2, in particular, the key giving a reading of f16 and the fill f11. I used an aperture of 11 and a half, hence actually overexposing by almost one stop (one third for ei100 plus one half). Dunno, it might as well be that the negs are underexposed, but is it realistic, given the aforementioned conditions?

Try bracketing the shots at 5.6 and 8.

Would not loose any sleep because my dev times don't match somebody elses.
What really matters is that you get the negatives you want. Underdeveloped? Increase the time.

I use old outdated Rodinal currently, 1:50, and my times are less then recommended and less then yours (not that it really matters).

If you still want to find out what makes your times long:
a) check your thermometer against another
b) bring the water for developer to 20C before mixing Rodinal
c) try using clean water, like the one you would use for cooking
d) try using a tempering bath before development to make sure film and dev is at 20C
e) maybe you are not really making developer flow against the film during agitation? That would lead to semi-stand development even though you are actually agitating. Leave some air inside the tank and try making faster tank rotations
f) "film markings varying from very faint to mmm-that-might-be-almost-fine-maybe" - if that is on one roll then it would be uneven development which comes from lack of agitation. I think 10s per minute is enough but you have to be sure that developer actually moves at every point of film surface
g) you did not say what format are you using; I found that the easy and cheap way to do development tests is to shoot 35mm several frames (bracketed or with different contrast range) at a time and cut off the exposed piece of film in the darkness. Try a big increase in time at first, like 50%, or agitation change, and adjust from there. Chances are that you would be very close to optimal results by the end of 1 roll of film.

Good luck, and have fun!

Please define how the negatives look when "underdeveloped". Are they thin in total density, or do they lack contrast. If they are thin, it is probably exposure. If they lack contrast, it is probably insufficient development.
Another simple test would be to expose another test roll. Develop half of the roll in the Rodinal and half in D76 and compare the results. It may tell the story.

It sounds like it could have been tap water quality, causing the issue.. I still have to try with fp4 again, but two rolls of delta 400, developed in 1+50 rodinal, this time mixed with distilled water, ran for the 20 minutes at 19C stated on the agfa specs and they're just spot on, or very close, at least..