Under-fixed negs, and very faint negs!?!

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Alpaca

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Mar 26, 2007
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Well I just started developing my own film recently, and I'm having a fair amount of trouble. I'm using Ilford FP4 and HP5 film. Ilford Ifolsol S developer, Kodak pro stop, and Ilford rapid fixer for my chemicals. First batch I develop, stop, and fix,and rinsed to the manufactures' recommended times. The negs come out under-fixed, witch i still have to fix. Then my next batch, under the advisement of the camera store owner, I fixed for 10 minutes, now all my negs are very faint. I'm just so confused because I would think the negatives should come out just fine if I go by what Ilford tells me in the instructions. Where am I going wrong??

Another quick question, very beginnerish but I just need to know, when mixing chemicals and it says 1+4, you add 1 part chemical, 4 parts water, so 10ml chem 40 ml water, that is right, correct?

Thanks for the help, just kinda frustrated because I may not be able to print the faint negs and there were some decent photographs on them.
 

w35773

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Hi, welcome to APUG from another fairly new guy.

The answer to your second question is just as you wrote, 1+4 means 1 part chem to 4 parts water.

I am curious to know what you mean by under-fixed. How do you know?

Are you mixing with distilled water? This might make a difference depending on what is in your tap water.

Are you sure about your exposure times? I had a roll of film come out pretty thin because I was failing to adjust my exposure times for my film speed.

I would also consider trying a different developer. I have never used ilfosol-s, but what I have read makes me think it would be better suited to someone with more experience.

Good Luck!!
Russell
 

Ian Grant

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While 10 mins in Rapid fixer is quite a long time it's unlikely to be the main cause of your thin negatives. Over fixing particularly in an Ammonium Thiosulphate fixers (such as Ilfords Rapid Fixer) will cause some bleaching of developed emulsions but this is far more apparent with prints rather than negatives.

You are right about dilution 1+4 means ! part developer and 4 parts water, but I suspect your negatives are under developed and perhaps also under exposed.

Try using FP4 at 80ISO and increase your developing time.

Ian
 

Monophoto

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One of the fundamental rules of photography is that the best images are always on the film that was damaged in processing.

How are you agitating your film during processing? In my experience, agitation is the key to good processing of film. I presume you are using a small tank with inversion agitation. For development, I use continuous agitation for 30 seconds, followed by 5 seconds out of every thirty seconds for the rest of the development time. And agitation means completely inverting the tank, flipping it from one end to the other about once every second with a sharp twist of the wrist, followed by a gentle "wiggle" at the end of each agitation cycle to dislodge any bubbles that might have formed on the film.

For fixing, I believe in continuous agitation throughout the fixing cycle. With fresh rapid fix, I find that 3 minutes is adequate. Be careful of overfixing with rapid fix - that can bleach out highlights in the image.

You mentioned two specific symptoms - 'underfixing' and "thin negatives'. How do you know your negatives were underfixed? There are two visible symptoms of underfixing - if they are cloudy, then they are grossly underfixed. Note that sometimes underfixing isn't apparent until the film has dried, and shows us as uneven brownish clouds. Just refix and rewash to solve that problem. By the way, be careful when you evaluate your dried negatives - if you hold them up to a bright light, the area immediately in front of the light might look "warmer" than the rest of the negative leading to an incorrect belief that they are underfixed. The best way to evaluate negatives is to either use a light box, or to look through them toward an evenly illuminated white wall.

Another symptom is a uniform pinkish color. This is especially the case with t-grain films (Kodak T-Max, Ilford Delta). Again, refix and rewash, and the problem will be solved.

In either case, however, you should be able to completely fix film in three minutes. If that is not happening, then the most likely causes are insufficient agitation, or excessively diluted and/or exhausted fixer.

And always use a stop bath. For film processing, the stop can be plain water. The essential function of a stop bath in film processing is to prevent carrying developer over into the fixer. A brief (30 seconds) plain water stop bath will make your fixer last a lot longer.

On your thin negatives, were the edge markings distinct, or were they also thin. If the edge markings were also thin, then you underdeveloped the film - either because of incorrect developer dilution, exhausted developer, or insufficient agitation. If the edge markings were distinct but the image area was thin, then the problem was most likely underexposure.

Final thought - when you are first starting out, the best thing to do is to follow the manufacturer's instructions exactly and ABSOLUTELY CONSISTENTLY. Once you find that you are getting consistent satisfactory results, you can then think about fine tuning the process.

And always remember that the images that you saw will be better than the images that you captured on film.
 

John Simmons

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Faint negatives are usually caused by underexposure, under development or a combination of both. In my opinion the thin negatives are not caused by over fixing.

If you are shooting FP4 I would rate the film at 64-80ISO. If you are shooting in overcast skys use the recommended mfg development times. If shooting in very bright, high contrast situations then cut develpment time 20-30%. This seems to work best for Ilfosol S and FP4.

When using ilfords rapid fixer agitate for the first minute then 30 seconds each minute for a total of 4 minutes.

Regards,
John
 
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Ilfosol-S is notorious for dying in the bottle, i.e. oxidizing very fast once you have opened the bottle and used part of the developer.

Regards,

David
 

Bob F.

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I would agree with others: the fixing time of 10 mins is unlikely to effect your negs to any noticeable degree, certainly not enough to make them uniformly thin. Although with fresh rapid fixer at 1+4, ten minutes is pushing your luck a bit... Under-fixing, when it is visible at all, normally makes the film look like it is covered with a grey fog - it does not make the negatives dark.

I would suggest you stick with Ilford's recommended processing sequence as you are using their film and developer.

Is it possible that you are not being as strict with time and temperature when developing as you should? When developing it is essential to get the time and temperature as close as you practically can to the correct values. Temperature should not change by more than 0.5C for repeatability. Ilford developer data sheets have a chart showing how to adjust development time for different temperatures. Use a suitable thermometer with this kind of accuracy. Likewise, keep overall time and inversion to the same kind of accuracy - 5 seconds out is OK, 20 seconds out is not. Treat developing film like a scientific experiment where all the variables need to be tightly controlled...

The times and temperature of the stop bath and fixer are nowhere near as critical and within a couple of degrees is fine.

Like some others, I rate FP4+ at 80 ASA. In the absence of testing for your personal EI, this is a good rule-of-thumb value to protect the shadows if your metering is a bit off.

Good luck, Bob.

P.S. You may be surprised how well thin negs can print. I have one underexposed by about 4 stops in my gallery here that works OK (but needs Grade 5 paper...)
 

pentaxuser

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I am a user of Ilfosol S and Ilford Rapid Fixer myself and have done FP4 and D400 in it but not HP5+ as I use Perceptol for that.

I have found that the Ilford times produce thin negs which if my experience is anything to go by, suggests that reducing dev time further is not the way to go.

For FP4 Ilford suggests 4 mins and based on my experience of D100 which was still a little underdeveloped at 10.5 mins( as opposed to the Ilford time of 9 mins) I decided to take a chance and increase the FP4 time it by the same time margin but a bigger percentage and go for 5.5 mins.

The FP4 negs looked about right at 5.5 mins and I get good prints with good higlights and mainly grades 2-2.5 with an occasional grade 3.

I stuck to Ilford agitation of first 10 secs and then 10 secs every min and fixed for 5 mins with occasional agitation. I suspect that 4 mins fix would have been ample but I am a belt and braces man.

So the good news is that provided the fix is fresh then as others have said 5 mins should prove more than ample and agitation doesn't seem critical provided you give some. Likewise the Ilford dev agitation works fine.

BUT if my experience is anything to go by then 5.5 mins for FP4 is the minimum to go for.

As far as keeping properties are concerned I have just finished a 250ml bottle bought in early March and used regularly from that date i.e. opened about 8 times since then without a problem. I use a protective gas like Protectan each time I open Ilfosol but unless I have been very lucky, it may be that rumours of Ilfosol's very short life and sudden death may have been exaggerated.

Interestingly both FP4 and D400 are the two films where Ilford give a 2 and 1 min increase for 120 roll films respectively (FP4 from 4 to 6 mins and D400 from 9 to 10 mins) whereas for other films there is no difference, I cannot expand on this as I haven't seen the Ilford explanation. It might be just coincidence but it just seems strange that my experience suggests that these are two films where in my opinion increases for 35mm are justified as well.

pentaxuser
 

nworth

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The usual reason for thin negatives is underexposure. Be sure to expose your shots fully, and rate the film no higher than the ISO speed (lower by a third of a stop is often good). Sometimes the problem is underdevelopment. Be careful about times and agitation. Ten minutes in rapid fixer is excessive. That long will probably cause bleaching in the shadow areas, but it shouldn't cause "thin" negatives. Your negatives are definitely not underfixed. Once again, use the manufacturer's recommended times for fixing.
 
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