Unable to sepia/selenium split tone

I have a pile of brown prints - I want a pile of split tone sepia/selenium(black) prints.

I have tried on numerous occasions, changing the work process and always end up with brown prints, all on MGWT.

I have tried quick weak bleach (pot. ferri.) bath 1:15 for as short as 5 seconds followed equally short thiocarbamide tone and then by various strength sel. toner and always end up with brown prints!

I want to have slightly sepia highlights with the darker greys remaining grey/black. I've seen some on the APUG Gallery so they must exist - or - is it that the darker colours are in fact very dark brown?

Perhaps I'm attempting something that isn't possible - but I'm sure it IS possible.

The only thought is that perhaps it does not work with thiocarbamide.

I have searched APUG and others for an answer but no-one seems to have this particular problem.
Thanks for any help.

Perhaps you should try selenium toning first, then sepia tone, but using MGWT might not be the best choice. A neutral tone paper might actually be a better choice for this effect. In any case, try different papers and - or toning sequences with some scrap untoned prints. You need to experiment a bit.

Since paper manufacturers were forced to remove heavy metals like cadmium and lead from their emulsion formulas toning has become less predictable. Some papers do not seem to respond to selenium at all.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Gerald C Koch said:

Since paper manufacturers were forced to remove heavy metals like cadmium and lead from their emulsion formulas toning has become less predictable. Some papers do not seem to respond to selenium at all.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

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Ilford's MG IV RC/FB, and perhaps Classic too, doesn't respond much to selenium toning. Starting with a neutral tone image, these papers gain some more density and after prolonged toning a slight purple tint. On the other hand, warmtone papers respond differently to selenium and can get a brown tone. So, that's the reason why I proposed trying a neutral tone paper.

I worked for a photographer that did split toning. He used a mix of potassium bromide and potassium ferricyanide to bleach his prints. After the bleaching, the print is rinsed then re-exposed in the sun. The image would come back split toned. His paper of choice was Agfa Brovira which isn't made any more. I read a bit on how Olivia Parker does her split toning and if I remember correctly, it's with luck, trial and error.

if i wanted light sepia toning, i would bleach less and "kept more black". if i wanted to really end up with a sepia tone, i would really bleach the image. i would adjust time and dilutions.

i don't know the science behind this, (or if there is any chemical basis!), I just adopted it as a practice and it's worked over the years with various papers... some worked better than others.

when i selenium toned afterwards it wasn't to effect any tone difference.

as with previous comments - trial and error prevailed.

This book is rare, but may help you tone better and might be a good investment. Tim Rudman is excellent.

https://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Toning-Book-Definitive-Guide/dp/0817454659

Selenium toning works on shadow / dark areas first. Bleach starts to work from the highlights. Using these two mechanisms in combination is a basis for split toning using Se / Sepia.

So tone in Se first to "lock" the shadows. Then partially bleach the highlights. MGWT reacts quickly to bleach, I would dilute the bleach much further to have better control. Finally tone / redevelop highlights in Thiourea toner.

Lars

ColinRH said:

I have a pile of brown prints - I want a pile of split tone sepia/selenium(black) prints.

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The easiest would be to use a neutral tone paper and a neutral tone developer. MGWT has embedded coulorants to achieve part of its look and feel, and probably the look you desire is extremely difficult with this paper. Adox Variotone has the same emulsion as MGWT without the coulorants on a bright white base. You can develop the Adox to pure black with a neutral tone developer and to brown with a wt developer.

Bleaching for 5 sec. only in weak bleach won't have a visible effect and the Thiocarbamide redevelopment should be taken to completion. With the amount of alkali in the Thiocarbamide solution you can affect the tone. The more alkali you are using, the less yellowish it will be.

I'd also do the selnium toning first as sulfur from the thiocarbamide can have an effect on the developed silver, too. But be aware the selenium at lower dilutions (generally < 1:10, but depends on the individual toner product, the paper, ...) can change your picture colour towards some reddish/brownish cast.

ColinRH said:

I want to have slightly sepia highlights with the darker greys remaining grey/black.

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Try a neutral tone paper in a neutral tone developer. Bleach in weak solution (1:15 should be fine, if it is too fast dillute more) at sight until only the highlights are lighter and the rest of the picture remains. Redevelop in Thiocarbamide to completion. If the thiocarbamide solution has little alkali, the highlights will reappear yellowish, with more alkali they will be brown to dark brown.

+1 on selenium toning first. You may see different results if you allow the print to dry after selenium toning. See also the recent thread on direct polysulfide toning to see if the color palette of any of the examples appeals to you.

Ilford Warmtone responds to both selenium and sepia like a champion. LarsAC above has a good approach.

The paper is absolutely up to the task, you just have to refine your technique. If your prints are too sepia coloured, be more delicate with your bleaching. If they're too plummy, go easy on the selenium. Dilution is the easiest way to control these variables.

RauschenOderKorn said:

The easiest would be to use a neutral tone paper and a neutral tone developer. MGWT has embedded coulorants to achieve part of its look and feel, and probably the look you desire is extremely difficult with this paper. Adox Variotone has the same emulsion as MGWT without the coulorants on a bright white base. You can develop the Adox to pure black with a neutral tone developer and to brown with a wt developer.

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MGWT has not been on a toned base for some time now - & in the current form the brighteners in the white base wash out with a longer wash - Simon Galley commented on this multiple times. Variotone has a similar emulsion, but I'd not call it the 'same' - ie it's a warmtone emulsion made on the same plant using the same technology, but it's not going to be exactly MGWT as Harman have been quite clear that 'Ilford' branded products will not be sold under other brands, though their other brands may be - see the Kentmere films/ RPX100/ APX100 new/ Fotoimpex CHM100.

I have made the observation, that Ilford MGFBWT creates a very blackish brown with odorless sepia toner, unless you knock down toner pH. My impression is that ColinRH wants some lighter yellowish teint in the highlights and deep black shadows. Here is what he can do:

1. Bleach the print with the regular bleach that came with sepia toner. Use different bleach times to control how much silver is bleached away, this is doable by visual inspection. If bleach is too fast, dilute it until your results are reproducible, this happens for typical bleach speed of a few minutes.
   
2. The toner part of odorless sepia toners is mixed from water and two concentrates, one containing Thiourea, the other one some strong alkali, typically Sodium Hydroxide. In e.g. this sepia toner package, part 2 contains the Thiourea, and part 3 contains Sodium Hydroxide.
3. If you have such a kit, mix the toner bath with the following recipe: 5 g/l Sodium Carbonate Decahydrate (crystalline), 2 g/l Sodium Bicarbonate, toner part 2 as prescribed by the recipe.
4. If you have a kit with just one toner concentrate, such as this one, add progressive amounts of Sodium Bicarbonate to your toner working solution until you get the yellow teint you are after. You need to experiment with these kits. Too much Sodium Bicarbonate will make the toner exceedingly slow, and you will lose lots of highlight density, so go easy with the Bicarbonate at first, use increments of 0.5 g/l until you like the results.
5. There is a good chance that not all the silver halide created by the bleach has been toned. You need to fix the print to make it permanent. Don't forget to wash to archival standards after fixation!
6. If you want to boost shadows now, use selenium toner. In my experience most selenium toners are much weaker today than they were ten years ago, so be prepared for long selenium toner times and fatter mixtures than the instructions recommend.

I split tone all the time with different papers..
Here is how I work- completely follow archival methods of washing .

I sepia tone first

Step 1
Bleach
32grams Potassium Ferri
32 gram of Potasium Bromide
12-15 litres of water.. Warm tone papers like Ilford Warmtone I will use more dilute

Toner
32 grams of Sodium Sulphide(the stinky stuff)
10 litres of water

Pre soak the prints
Usually I put the print in the bleach solution for about 10 - 30 seconds depending how BROWN I want the print to go..
Longer time in Bleach more Brown.

I then put the Bleached print in the Toner - effect is almost immediate.

I like Bill Schwab's method of bleaching less putting in toner, deciding if its BROWN enough, if not back into the bleach and then back into the toner.
Bill showed me this and I really like this as it allows you to build up the tone , rather than go all in .

After the print is Sepia Brown to my liking I then decide on gold (very expensive ) but quite beautiful split in the mid to upper highlights . peachy orange on Ilford Warmtone.

I have yet to really effect the low end shadows, I guess there is some action but at this point I really cannot tell.

I use Selenium Toner next - These days Ilford selenium.

I mix a 1 :5 dilution for all my Selenium work and adjust time.

the print is then put into the selenium mixture and I pull the print to taste... I have found that with sepia first, slight gold, the addition of selenium can turn the print into
a nice copper tone which I strive for.

For years I have tried to introduce Blue into this mix with very limited success.. In fact that is what has driven me to gum over palladium where I can get the beautiful warm highlights
and the stunning cold shadows that I think is my favourite all time look.

I have always used the Stinky route much to the dismay of my staff and Landlord, but it is a tried and true method and I do not want to fix it if it aint broke.

I can't offer much more than has already been said but; I used to tone with these materials a while ago (unfortunately I've since forgotten most of the knowledge that I learned from my endeavours).
However, reading this thread made me remember that the initial development process at the enlarger and development-tray stages, and the range of contrast in a print; in addition to differing dilutions, could also be a determining factor.
I remember exposing with more/less 00 and more/less 05; in order to affect the following toning procedure to the extent I required it. The prints were awful looking at first, but hit a nice sweet spot after the toning.
As a previous poster mentioned, the two toners will affect different papers and different tones at differing stages.

It is all very involved (trial and error), but worth it if/when it is mastered.
Unfortunately, it is not a poor man's game these days.

JP

Bob Carnie said:

For years I have tried to introduce Blue into this mix with very limited success.. In fact that is what has driven me to gum over palladium where I can get the beautiful warm highlights
and the stunning cold shadows that I think is my favourite all time look.

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Another vote in favour of the sulphide route here too - & the look on MGWT/ ART300 when you follow up with gold is stunning - something everyone should try at least once in their printing career.

Regarding the warm highs/ cool shadows, a direct sulphide toner at high dilution & controlled after toning in the wash might be worth trying on FB Cooltone - I've had some interesting results with it and the last version of Viradon at 1+50 (still need to try it at 1+100 or more), but you do need to be careful about length of time spent in the toner & the use of the alkaline toner 'stop' that's often recommended - all that (quite strong) alkali can damage the baryta base/ soften the emulsion all too easily.

Another fun one is to throw a really dark print into Hypo-Alum followed by bleaching it in pot. ferri. - times are long but it can produce some pretty crazy colours & tonal effects like some sort of pseudo lith print. Have done this with Fomatone, yet to try it with anything else.

I recommend getting Tim Rudman's recent book on Iceland. All the images use the paper and toner combination you are asking about. He describes his technique in the back of the book and the effect is beautiful. He uses a relatively dilute selenium solution and the warmest thiocarbamide mixture, as I recall. The shadows are neutral/cold and the skies and other highlights are slightly warm. I believe the selenium goes first and is relatively brief. For the thio step, don't hesitate to highly dilute your bleach (say, 5%, or 2.5%) for finer control of reduction. I always use 5% or less for significant but not over done thio toning, and the times are always between 30 seconds and 2 minutes. It sounds to me like you're over-bleaching and getting to much thiocarbamide tone.

ColinRH said:

I have a pile of brown prints - I want a pile of split tone sepia/selenium(black) prints.

I have tried on numerous occasions, changing the work process and always end up with brown prints, all on MGWT.

I have tried quick weak bleach (pot. ferri.) bath 1:15 for as short as 5 seconds followed equally short thiocarbamide tone and then by various strength sel. toner and always end up with brown prints!

I want to have slightly sepia highlights with the darker greys remaining grey/black. I've seen some on the APUG Gallery so they must exist - or - is it that the darker colours are in fact very dark brown?

Perhaps I'm attempting something that isn't possible - but I'm sure it IS possible.

The only thought is that perhaps it does not work with thiocarbamide.

I have searched APUG and others for an answer but no-one seems to have this particular problem.
Thanks for any help.

Click to expand...

sulphide toning has to deal with'aftertoning'. th toning continues even in the wash! The only way I know to combat this is working with shorter times in the toner (down to a minute)diluting sulphide toner more will not work! It seems peculiar but highly diluted sulphide toner tones quite strongly for some reason. elaborate testing to get the desired tone is unavoidable. Image protection is given even with brief and weak sulphide toning.

A bath of sodium sulfite [*not* sulfide] works as 'stop bath' for sepia toning,
A tablespoon in a litre of water, prints that go from the sepia directly
into this do not continue toning during the wash. This can prevent
the sepia from reaching "too deep" into the darks...

Rudman also recommends you sometimes slightly overprint ones you
want to maintain the shadows in as stronger sepia toning will lighten
even the darkest tones...

my process, yours will be different...

- wet prints
- 30 secs in dilute [at least 1:100] bleach, the highlights should *barely* be different
- wash 5 min
- 30 secs [or more, depends on what you want] in toner, I use viradon, but any toner can be used here
NOTE: temperature affects the rate
- 1 minute sodium sulfite "stop bath", *important* : stops the toning
- 5 minute wash
- 1 minute actual stop bath, removes sodium sulfite precipitate for me, depends on your water, I think
- 2 min fix
- 10 min wash
- 10 min hypo-clear
- 30 min wash