UltraStable - Permanent, Non Fading Color Photographs . . Color-Carbon Par Excellence

OzJohn · Feb 16, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Hmmm, thinking this over, how about breaking open a set of C/M/Y pigment inkjet cartridges and mixing them into glop! Then you can test them out in Carbon printing.

PE

I have no particular interest in this topic having just stumbled upon it but why break open three expensive cartridges when you can buy 3rd party refill inks - there are some pigment inks available for Epson Photo printers and while perhaps not as good as the OEM inks they may serve for experimention. OzJohn

Photo Engineer · Feb 16, 2012

Oz;

My problem is that I am an ANALOG guy and didn't know anything about what you posted.

Thank you.

PE

Hexavalent · Feb 16, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Hmmm, thinking this over, how about breaking open a set of C/M/Y pigment inkjet cartridges and mixing them into glop! Then you can test them out in Carbon printing.

PE

Tried that.. still trying to get the stains out. "Pigment" inks act more like dyes than typical pigments.

OzJohn · Feb 16, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Oz;

My problem is that I am an ANALOG guy and didn't know anything about what you posted.

Thank you.

PE

It's feels good to tempt fate occasionally! OzJohn

DREW WILEY · Feb 16, 2012

Ron - all the pigments used in any of the commercial carbon or carbro processes would be classified as opaque. They allow light to pass around
them because the dispersion is relatively thin. But the ability to hypothetically make true transparent process pigment is relatively new
technology. There are a couple of ways to do it, but all the carbon printers in the world would not be enough incentive for a manufacturer to make money on a custom batch. Somone would have to finance it just for the love of the medium. Inkjet pigments are really complex blends of dyes,
pigments, and lakes. But permanence is not their first priority. You can learn a lot about them from the underlying patents. The bigger issue is
dispersant technology, and here there are some serious trade secret involved. Given all the added ingredients in inkjet colors, it probable they'd
do poorly in a carbon or carbro application. What I'd really like to see is
the kind of glow one gets with a dye transfer print with the permanence
and scale of a carbon. The clues are out there, but probably not in photographic literature per se.

Photo Engineer · Feb 16, 2012

Drew;

Had you ever considered these options?

1. As particle size decreases, transparency goes up!

2. Metallized dye complexes are transparent. You form the "pigment" in situ by reaction with a metal salt.

PE

DREW WILEY · Feb 17, 2012

Precisely, Ron. The point is, that folks making advanced pigments don't have any real incentive to make process
colors. I'm sure I could take something already available in industrial scale and turn out a reasonably balanced
carbon print, probably just as good as any pigment set currently being used, but not anywhere near the hypothetical ideal. A co-worker of mine invested in metal pigments early on, got nervous, so sold his shares off
early. He still made enought to put his kids thru college; but then the technology took off big scale and he realized he could have retired on it if he had waited another year or two! There is also for remarkable pigment
work developed in Europe. None of this has anything to do with inkjet needs. I'm talking about primary pigments,
not lakes or tiny dyed particles. The permanence potential with problems from preservatives or glycols is out
there. I just don't have any time at the moment to experiment. I need to get my inventory of more ordinary color
prints built up again before I can fool around with either dye transfer printing or something wholly experimental.
Another area where fresh thinking could begin regards actual tissue sensitization with involve neither dichromates nor diazo technique. That can be found in medical patents related to gelatin and collagen. But so
far, everything I've encountered looks either too complex or too toxic to recommend to any home darkroom worker. It would take a trained chemist with appropriate professional facilities. And absolutely none of this would
have any realistic profit potential. Nobody cares what a carbon print is nowadays other than another printmaker.

MDR · Feb 17, 2012

I have yet to try it but the Shiba process doesn't look to complicated and can create "three color gums" or "three color carbon tissue" without the use of dichromates. Quiet a few photographers I know would love to see a comeback of the dye transfer. Some smaller pigment mills in Europe, especially in the Czech Republic might be interested in creating a niche product.

Dominik

DREW WILEY · Feb 17, 2012

Doninik - dye transfer matrix film has already had three custom runs in Europe. My freezer is full of the last of the Ekfe batch, and allegedly the film made in Germany is better per dust control, but that all went to one user
in Germany who exposes it via blue laser, but otherwise processes it traditionally. I'm personally working in more an advanced tweak of the older wash-off relief technique, totally analog, but so far getting very promising test results, but still haven't had time to do serious personal printing this way. The whole problem with alternative
printers is that they naturally want to experiment in all kinds of different directions, so it's quite difficult to pool
buying power into any one category. Dye transfer would be easy to revive if there were enough younger workers
willing to spend the time and money. But it does require a fair amount of elbow room if one wishes to make larger
prints. Commercially it will never compete with inkjet. You've got to want to do it for personal reason, or for the
superior look of certain specific colors. But my goal is not to replicate it but actually improve it in certain respects. I can confidently state that I've found better ways to make separation negatives than in the heyday
of the process, without even resorting to digital negs, and have also figured out better ways to develop the
matrices. Other folks are exploring ways of improving dyes and mordants.

DREW WILEY · Feb 17, 2012

But this jogs my memory, since Ron you are a member of the dye transfer forum too, and have the
necessary background in film science. And here the holy grail of matrice film per se would be something with a straighter toe and better highlight control, which has always been a shortcoming
of the process. I'm going to mess with developer tweaks to do this, and still have a lot of Tech Pan
8x10 on hand if old school highlight masking is still required. But rethinking the matrix film itself might
be in order. Jim's formula and Efke etc is pretty much a replication of traditional Kodak film.

Photo Engineer · Feb 17, 2012

I just talked to Jim a few days ago about this. I would have to defer to Jim for posting anything he feels comfortable discussing here on the forum. My work has gone in a different direction, namely very high speed emulsions with advanced sensitization. Maybe that will be in Volume 2 of my book.

As you say, Matrix film has a very definite set of requirements. They can be compatible with ordinary films but need not be.

PE

CMB · Feb 27, 2012

Adam Bartos Exhibit

The Tom Gitterman Gallery (New York) exhibition of Adam Bartos photographs will feature 9 color carbon prints made by Tod Gangler. The opening reception is Wednesday February 29th and Tod will be there - so if you are in town, here's your chance to talk shop with a master of the process.

http://gittermangallery.com/html/exhibinfo.asp?exnum=20652

holmburgers · May 22, 2012

Just found a great supplier of all things pigment. http://www.kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?lang=ENG

There are a LOT of interesting pigments on this website, which should appeal to anyone who's into carbon or gum printing. The nice thing is that they appear to be easily bought, that is, like internet buying should be! (not some roundabout rigmarole of requesting a quote, meeting minimum quantities, requesting a sample, etc.)

Here are the UltraStable pigments in aqueous dispersions. They can also be bought raw and as studio pigments, but this just seemed too convenient not to mention.

PB 15:3 , PR 122 , PY 184

keesbran · May 22, 2012

hi, these are indeed excellent. I did my first tri-color diazostilbene carbons with them

kees

CMB · Jun 27, 2012

keesbran said:
I did my first tri-color diazostilbene carbons with them

kees

I am quite pleased to learn that you have had some success making tri-color diazostilbene carbons. Could you share some info (or even a foto or two) on your procedures? What kind of separation negative (con-tone/half-tone - silver/inkjet) are you using?

Best,

Charles

keesbran · Jun 28, 2012

CMB said:
I am quite pleased to learn that you have had some success making tri-color diazostilbene carbons. Could you share some info (or even a foto or two) on your procedures? What kind of separation negative (con-tone/half-tone - silver/inkjet) are you using?

Best,

Charles

Hi Charles,

Yes, I am pleased with these tests too! They went rather well.

As I wrote earlier I found the 4,4'diazidostilbene here in the Netherlands at about €1,10 (= $1,36) per gram. Rather expensive compared to dichromate, but not a real show stopper.
I used the Kremer color pastes and a Gelita photo gelatin, restauration quality (of bovine origin) in a 10% solution. Added 30gr sugar and 3ml glycerine per liter.
Coating was on 200gr Yupo with a RD200 coating rod.

My color balance was a bit off, the Kremer M is very powerfull so I need to cut that down next tissue pouring session.
Diazidostilbene/gelatin ratio in my mix is 0.06 (6 gr per 100gr gelatin). I followed more or less your recommendations above. Printing time is a little bit longer than with my usual 3% dichromate. I used the same time for all colors.

I transfered the A3+ prints (K=>C=>M=>Y) to an albumen coated polycarbonate sheet and used an (ebay acquired) kodak register punch. The albumen really helped, but unfortunately reintroduced some dichromate again. I will experiment with other albumen hardeners (alcohol?) and other coatings. Until now I tried fully hydrolyzed PVA (Mowiol 4-98) but without succes. Washing the transfered print with the albumin subcoating is much much easier than without!

I print digital negatives with QuadToneRip on an Epson 7890 on Sihl film. I use a custom QTR profile with partioned PK, LK, LLK and Y as a UV blocking toner ink. Curve was calculated with Charthrob. I also experimented with Icefields to generate a stochastic set of negatives. But outputting them well on the epson needs a dedicated rip. I did not try imagesetter output of these yet. In my opinion the QTR inkdot dithering allready behaves as a stochastic halftone in it's nature.

Here's a tray snapshot of the first two, still wet, and a bit too magenta. These are part of a series of portaits I'm working on - based on merged contemporary and historic faces.

regards,

Kees

CMB · Jun 29, 2012

Hello Kees,

Thank you for the precise and in-depth description of your procedure. It is most impressive that you are achieving these results using the same exposures for all colors.

A few thoughts/questions:

I agree with you that eliminating dichromate from the albumen would be desirable - have you tried the diazidostilbene in its place?

Does the slight magenta cast in the wet prints lighten when the prints are dried? What are you using as a clearing bath?

Are you working CMY or CMYK?

Once again, allow me congratulate you on your success - I look forward to seeing more of the merged portrait series.

Best,

Charles

keesbran · Jul 2, 2012

Hi Charles,

CMB said:
I agree with you that eliminating dichromate from the albumen would be desirable - have you tried the diazidostilbene in its place?

No, not yet, but I will do.

Does the slight magenta cast in the wet prints lighten when the prints are dried? What are you using as a clearing bath?

Somewhat, I did not clear them yet.

Are you working CMY or CMYK?

CMYK

Printing times are based on first max density with my digital negatives and kept the same for all 4 colors to keep this variable constant (for a start). Pigment amounts were based on earlier experience with the Kremer color pastes in 3 and 4 color gum.
For this pouring I used C=10gr M=10gr Y=16gr K=10gr per liter 10% gelatin. Note: the Y has 60% pigment solids and is more liquid than the others. I will cut down the M somewhat for a better balance. If the results are more or less ok, I probably will generate a linearization for each color channel. The UV absorption/transmission is not the same for all 4colors. And....if all that is done and stable, maybe I'll try to colorprofile the whole process...

Once again, allow me congratulate you on your success - I look forward to seeing more of the merged portrait series.

Thanks!
Your posts here and the videos with Todd Gangler were very informative!

regards,

kees

digisnapr · Jul 6, 2012

Hi Kees,

I have been following this thread with interest. I was wondering which company in the netherlands you found your 4,4'diazidostilbene with? I am in the UK, and to be honest have absolutely no clue where to start looking for this other than through good old Google. The only place I have found in the UK to stock it will not sell to an individual, only to Limited companies...

Any help would be appreciated.

keesbran · Jul 6, 2012

Hi,

This is more or less the same here in the Netherlands. But as a professional photographer I have access to wholesale chemical suppliers (VAT and chamber of commerce registrations required). The one that supplied the stilbene is Interchema/Antonides (antonides.com).

CMB · Oct 5, 2012

Art & Soul's Greatest Hits

Color carbon prints made by Tod Gangler will be on exhibit at Art & Soul, 2860 NW Market St, Seattle, from October 13 thru November 9. Here's the Press Release:

"Art & Soul is proud to present a selection of printers proofs on display from a series of the best projects we've had the privilege to work on over the last decade. The images span from the early history of color photography to the present and are all printed as tri-color or four color carbon prints. We hope you can join us for this unique and one of a kind showing!"

This is a rare opportunity to view a matchless collection of impeccably made historic and contemporary color carbon photographs.

Charles

MattKing · Oct 5, 2012

CMB said:
Color carbon prints made by Tod Gangler will be on exhibit at Art & Soul, 2860 NW Market St, Seattle, from October 13 thru November 9. Here's the Press Release:

"Art & Soul is proud to present a selection of printers proofs on display from a series of the best projects we've had the privilege to work on over the last decade. The images span from the early history of color photography to the present and are all printed as tri-color or four color carbon prints. We hope you can join us for this unique and one of a kind showing!"

This is a rare opportunity to view a matchless collection of impeccably made historic and contemporary color carbon photographs.

Charles

Those of us who were fortunate to attend the 2012 Northwest Symposium for Alternative Photography in Bellevue Washington on September 22nd were able to see some of Tod's printer's proofs. They are truly wonderful. I would strongly recommend that people make time to see this.

keesbran · Oct 5, 2012

CMB said:
This is a rare opportunity to view a matchless collection of impeccably made historic and contemporary color carbon photographs.

Charles

Hi Charles,

For al of us living far away from Art & Soul would you be so kind to take up your camera once again and walk through this exhibition together with Tod?
Would be great!

thanks,

Kees

holmburgers · Oct 14, 2012

I happen to have a friend in Seattle this weekend; I'm sending him on my behalf!

Jim Fitzgerald · Oct 14, 2012

Wow! I wish I lived up north.

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