UltraStable - Permanent, Non Fading Color Photographs . . Color-Carbon Par Excellence

holmburgers · Aug 24, 2011

Greg's post in the diazo thread just made me think of this.

Could I substitute dichromate for permanganate in the clearing bath A?

I know, the irony is terrible... but I don't have any permanganate on hand and wouldn't mind clearing the print I have.

Thanks guys

Photo Engineer · Aug 24, 2011

I have no idea.

PE

holmburgers · Aug 24, 2011

I just thought that the powerful oxidizing nature would do the same thing as permanganate, just like in reversal processing.

gmikol · Aug 26, 2011

holmburgers said:
Could I substitute dichromate for permanganate in the clearing bath A?

I don't have any permanganate on hand and wouldn't mind clearing the print I have.

Don't know about dichromate, but I just tried hydrogen peroxide. Some web reading suggested that it's oxidizing ability was enhanced in acid solutions. I only had 3% stuff around (drug-store H2O2), so here's what I tried:

100mL 3% H2O2
~1mL 40% citric acid solution (this is about 0.4g).

It created a just-noticeable lightening of the dye stain in an all-white area (drop test) after about 90 seconds contact. Perhaps if you can easily get your hands on 10% or stronger H2O2, it might be a viable option, and one that eliminates the need for potassium permanganate.

Good luck--

Greg

holmburgers · Aug 27, 2011

Thanks Greg, I might have to give this a shot. I do love grocery store photo chemistry!

CMB · Sep 10, 2011

Re: UltraStable Video on YouTube

"What kinds of CMYK pigments did he use for the glop solutions?"  
MigdalBaval 

Phthalocyanine Blue GS (PB15:3)
Quinacridone Magenta (PR122)
Bismuth Vanadate Yellow (PY184)
Carbon Black (PBK7)

CMB · Sep 26, 2011

I am cross posting this from the diazo thread:

Originally Posted by keesbran

"...does the original Ultrastable recipe contain other special ingrediënts like surfactants or conservation agents?
And how about sugar/glycerin/alcohol (amounts) or other plasticizers in the pigmented gelatin?"

The "recipe" for the UltraStable pigment films is based on (except for the sensitizer) the formulation published in "The Home Manufacture of Materials for Carbon Printing" ( Wm. D. Fleming, American Photography, Vol 32, 1938, August, No. 8) :

Gelatin (20%) 100 ml
Sugar 5 g
Glycerin 1.5 ml
Pigment 1-5 - 2.5 g
Thymol (10% solution in 95% alcohol) 5 ml

Water (to make) 200 ml Total

Surfactants were added to the emulsion to facilitate machine coating but are not necessary for hand-made materials.

Photo Engineer · Sep 26, 2011

And I believe that I now have a stabilizer that is 40x better than Thymol at the same concentration. It remains to be seen whether it will have an effect on this "glop" that is harmful.

PE

Philippe Berger · Oct 2, 2011

For Carbon Color, Porprotion of Different Color

Hi Charles,

Gelatin (20%) 100 ml
Sugar 5 g
Glycerin 1.5 ml
Pigment 1-5 - 2.5 g
Thymol (10% solution in 95% alcohol) 5 ml
Water (to make) 200 ml Total

And

Phthalocyanine Blue GS (PB15:3)
Quinacridone Magenta (PR122)
Bismuth Vanadate Yellow (PY184)
Carbon Black (PBK7)

I would like to make carbon color using the form below and dyes.

I ask myself some questions?.

1. You use dry pigments or tube watercolor for coloring?
2. You give a concentration of 1.5 to 2.5 gr
Can give you the exact concentration with gr for different colors Yellow, blue, red and black or % between the Yellow, blue, red and Black with a first exactely gr concentration of pigment to make the color Carbon Tissue.
3. For exposure time, is there a % of UV exposure time between 4 colors color Carbon Tissue

Thank you for your help

The concentration of Pigment
Pigment 1-5 - 2.5 g
What is the best quantity of
Phthalocyanine Blue ? gr
Quinacridone Magenta ? gr
Bismuth Vanadate Yellow ? gr
Carbon Black ? gr
Or the différence centration % between this différents pigments.

Sorry for my english and best regards of all the members of this group

Thank you

Philippe

Philippe Berger
mineurdecharbon@skynet.be

CMB · Oct 3, 2011

Pigments for Color Carbon

Philippe Berger said:
1. You use dry pigments or tube watercolor for coloring?
2. You give a concentration of 1.5 to 2.5 gr
Can give you the exact concentration with gr for different colors Yellow, blue, red and black or % between the Yellow, blue, red and Black with a first exactely gr concentration of pigment to make the color Carbon Tissue.
3. For exposure time, is there a % of UV exposure time between 4 colors color Carbon Tissue

1. The C-M-K UltraStable colorants were aqueous pigment dispersions. The Yellow pigment was a dry powder which was ground and made into an aqueous dispersion.

2. In order to balance pigments for the color carbon process, it is first necessary to identify precisely which versions of the four color pigments will be used.

While the spectral characteristics of specific color pigments made by various manufactures may be quite uniform, aqueous dispersions of the same pigments can vary greatly. The surfactants and dispersants, not the pigment itself, used in the grinding and suspension of the pigment particles, are the chief cause of failure (in terms of cross-linking the gelatin emulsion) in the color carbon process. Some additives inhibit hardening, while others cause spontaneous hardening.

Once the individual pigment dispersions have been selected, the amounts required to achieve a neutral gray balance are a function of (besides their color values) the transparency and density characteristics of the pigments. Adjust (by trial and error) the concentration of pigment in the emulsion to achieve printed solid color densities of at least: Cyan 1.35 - 1.45; Magenta 1.25-1.35; Yellow .90 - 1.0; Black, 1.2 -1.3 . The base fog density ("pigment stain") of each color should be .03 or less.

3. The four color UltraStable pigment films were balanced to provide a neutral gray scale using the same exposure for each color (typically, 3-5 minutes with a 1000W Mercury Vapor lamp). By altering the exposure times from the neutral 1:1:1:1 settings, variations in color balance and density could be achieved in the final print without having to remake the high-resolution screened (optical or digital) separation negatives.

Philippe Berger · Oct 4, 2011

negatives séparations for Carbon COlor

Charles,
Very thank you for your précisins for the pigments, It is very interesting
I am a last question
It is for the negatives sépararations color if you use photoshop ?
With the original color pictures, if you use Photoshop, the separations of the color layers is to RVB for the negatives to make CMY Carbon color or you separate the color layers with photoshop is CMYB to make the negatives for the Carbon color dand the negatives cyan is the carbon Cyan ect ... ?

Thank you

Best regards

Philippe

Philippe Berger · Oct 6, 2011

Carbon Tissue Black one layer with this glop

Hi Charles,

Gelatin (20%) 100 ml
Sugar 5 g
Glycerin 1.5 ml
Pigment 1-5 - 2.5 g
Thymol (10% solution in 95% alcohol) 5 ml
Water (to make) 200 ml Total

I have a Carbon transfer in a single layer black.
I would use this formula (glop) to my Carbon Tissue black fabric.
I use the black sumi ink.
Know you tell me the amount in milliliters (ml) of sumi ink should I use this formula (glop) to get a Carbon Transfer in a single layer.

Thank you for your help

Philippe

Photo Engineer · Oct 6, 2011

As I remarked earlier, I am working on a preservative that is supposed to be 40x better than Thymol. Is this of interest to any of you?

I have another behind it in development that will be even better, but I need to know if there is interest in this stuff.

PE

gmikol · Oct 6, 2011

As, always, PE, thanks for your ongoing contributions...

From an academic standpoint, a more effective preservative is interesting. But given reasonable care in drying and storing hand-made tissues, they do not seem to be particularly susceptible to picking up nasties, and the broader experience base seems to suggest that Thymol is sufficient. In all my reading of various carbon threads and fora, I don't recall seeing any mention of Thymol-preserved tissues deteriorating due to microbial or fungal action.

Speaking from my opinion, here, if that advanced preservative is useful or necessary to your emulsion work, that should be the primary focus (and "market"). If it is readily obtainable, then some may choose to use it for their carbon tissues or other purposes, but I doubt it would be the driving force in continuing development of it. I hope that doesn't come across as too discouraging, but that's the way I see it.

--Greg

Photo Engineer · Oct 6, 2011

Greg;

In my experience, the "glop" goes bad pretty fast. That is what I am combating. Gelatin deterioration while either s wet "glop" or as plain gelatin for coating.

PE

Vaughn · Oct 6, 2011

I pour thick tissues at about 1.2 ml of glop per square inch. If I do not have a fan (no heat) on the tissue during the drying stage, I risk mold forming on the surface of the tissue. I have had mold growing on a tissue that was just out of reach of the air being pushed by the fan.

Once mixed (no preservative), my glop can sit in a water bath at 110F for up to 10 hours -- no trouble there...yet. I have tried to refrigerate the glop (again, no preservative) but ended up with the classic science experiment.

I can imagine a workflow that a safe preservative would be useful...make a lot of glop, then store it in the fridge. As needed, remelt and pour. I have made up to 2.5 liters of glop at a time -- that is all I can pour in one session and have enough room for the tissues to dry.

Vaughn

gmikol · Oct 7, 2011

Ok...I'll admit I may have been a little "me-focused" in my previous response. I don't store my glop, I pretty much pour everything I make.

I'd be curious to know how many practicioners make large batches of glop and store it for extended (> 48 hours?) periods of time.

--Greg

Philippe Berger · Oct 7, 2011

If 2.5 gr of pigment PBK7
What is the value with ? ml of sumi ink

2.5 gr pigment black PBK7 = ? ml od sumi ink black ?

Thank you for your idea (+/-)

R Shaffer · Nov 3, 2011

Met with CMB yesterday

Had the distinct pleasure of meeting with Charles Berger yesterday. I was very impressed by his willingness to share his knowledge of carbon & carbro and he's a really nice guy to boot. BUT he brought with a portfolio of ultrastable and color carbro prints that were just outstanding and I'm still trying to pull my jaw off the floor.

Here's my best attempt to describe the ultrastable prints. They had a physical presence and tactile quality that certainly made them so much more than a print. The depth and richness of the colors were pure eye candy. The reds and purples were hypnotic and I could hardly pull my gaze from them. The sharpness and detail were perfection and these were large, mostly 16 x 20 or bigger. He had prints on heavy water color papers, smooth papers and melenex and all of them were quite extraordinary.

So if you get the opportunity to see some ultrastable prints I would encourage you to do so. They are truly objects of great beauty.

CMB · Nov 8, 2011

Tod Gangler Exhibit

Color Carbon prints made by Tod Gangler are now on exhibit at Art and Soul Photo in Seattle (www.colorcarbonprint.com). Opening reception is Saturday, Nov 12, 6-9PM. This is a rare opportunity to view some of the finest color carbon prints ever made.

Bob Carnie · Nov 8, 2011

Charles

I took a ultra stable course in the 90's at Maine Photo Workshop for a week, Who was the instructor? do you remember ? for the life of me I cannot remember his name.
His work was like Todd's water ocean series, I do not think Todd taught this course but I remember his work as being very good, he did not transfer his work to watercolour paper, but did all on melimex.

thanks

Bob

CMB said:
Color Carbon prints made by Tod Gangler are now on exhibit at Art and Soul Photo in Seattle (www.colorcarbonprint.com). Opening reception is Saturday, Nov 12, 6-9PM. This is a rare opportunity to view some of the finest color carbon prints ever made.

CMB · Nov 8, 2011

Dave Schrader, who was an instructor in color photography at the Brooks Institute, taught the UltraStable process at the Maine Photographic Workshops. His beautiful work with water and tide pools was featured in the August 1991 issue of Camera and Darkroom. His website DavidMSchrader.com seems to be "in transition" but he can (?) be reached at davidmschrader@verizon.net.

Bob Carnie · Nov 8, 2011

Thats the guy ,, thanks, is he still making prints with permanent pigments?

CMB said:
Dave Schrader, who was an instructor in color photography at the Brooks Institute, taught the UltraStable process at the Maine Photographic Workshops. His beautiful work with water and tide pools was featured in the August 1991 issue of Camera and Darkroom. His website DavidMSchrader.com seems to be "in transition" but he can (?) be reached at davidmschrader@verizon.net.

VesaL · Nov 11, 2011

Carbon printing and Yupo Polypropylene paper

Hello! As I am new to Carbon printing, I was wondering, does any version of Yupo paper fit as support sheet for Gelatin coating ? I read somewherehere in the post, that it was yupo paper mr. Gangler was using.

Currently there is no Yupo available in my country (Finland), and I would like to be sure before i order it from abroad.

Thank you for your kind help in advance!

-Vesa

holmburgers · Nov 11, 2011

Yupo is fantastic as a tissue support (not for final support) and it's completely reusable.

I have the 104 lb. and it works nicely. I've heard others say that the lighter weight (74 lb.) works better as it allows the heat to transfer more quickly during the hot-water bath.

I'm referring to plain Yupo watercolor paper.

UltraStable - Permanent, Non Fading Color Photographs . . Color-Carbon Par Excellence

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