Ultrafine Ultramax 400 "T-grain"

Paul Verizzo · Mar 14, 2019

Honestly, where does Photo Warehouse come up with these names?

Anyway, if you don't know, they market a film allegedly since 1989 allegedly T-Grain. Rolls around $4, long rolls.....oops, never in stock....never mind. I've been mighty curious, since to the best of my knowledge only Kodak and Ilford make T-Grains.....maybe Acros was a designer grain, too.......and Ilford didn't come out with Delta after that alleged 1989 date by several years.

I placed an order for the Ultrafine Extreme.....honestly, where does Photo Warehouse come up with these names?...... 100 for a knock about and developer testing film. So I added 5 rolls of the, altogether now, Ultramax.

I use D-76 for a reference developer for new films, but in this case I went straight to my DK-50 diluted 1:1. Just call me impetuous. Per a solid bit of advice on another forum, I use T-Max 1:4 development times for that developer. Always right in the ballpark, like with the Extreme 100.

My first impression out of the tank was that it could have used another 15% more time. But on the scanner, close to perfect.

The film itself is nothing like the T-Max's. Not the base, it's thinner. Different leader color. No pink fixer stain. Only markings are numerical frame counters.

I was real disappointed in the grain, for allegedly being a T type. I went back and looked at my TMY scans and the difference is like a T-Max (of course), and a conventional grain film. Since I don't have any scans of TX of HP5+, I'm just making a jump of logic here.

I'll just use the Ultramax as a faux TX or similar.

I was going to provide scans, but somehow despite all the whirring and results showing, they didn't make it to the hard drive. Technology. What a love/hate relationship.

I guess if you want the real thing, you gotta buy the real thing.

UPDATE: I just did. Buy the real thing. 100' roll at Freestyle, $84. Adorama and B&H, $130. What the heck?

AgX · Mar 15, 2019

Paul Verizzo said:
since to the best of my knowledge only Kodak and Ilford make T-Grains.....

Agfa makes T-grain films too.

removed account4 · Mar 15, 2019

foma made creativ200 which was an awesome film.

koraks · Mar 15, 2019

jnantz said:
foma made creativ200 which was an awesome film.

They still do and it's still not a pure tabular grain film. It's a mixed emulsion with a fairly high tabular grain content; higher than you'd get with more old fashioned emulsion ripening techniques, but by far not as controlled as tmax or delta emulsions.

mdarnton · Mar 15, 2019

If you want T-Max 400, buy that.
I don't understand your complaint that something that isn't T-Max isn't T-Max.

Nodda Duma · Mar 15, 2019

koraks said:
They still do and it's still not a pure tabular grain film. It's a mixed emulsion with a fairly high tabular grain content; higher than you'd get with more old fashioned emulsion ripening techniques, but by far not as controlled as tmax or delta emulsions.

But do you think that’s because Foma has less stringent process control, or because they didn’t want to go all the way to a T-grain emulsion?

As you hint at, there’s nothing particularly magical about a T-grain emulsion...it’s all in the system for controlling precipitation and ripening.

pentaxuser · Mar 15, 2019

Paul Verizzo said:
Honestly, where does Photo Warehouse come up with these names?

I guess if you want the real thing, you gotta buy the real thing.

UPDATE: I just did. Buy the real thing. 100' roll at Freestyle, $84. Adorama and B&H, $130. What the heck?

It seems that the middle line above was always the conclusion you'd reach based on your scepticism of the company's claim and you duly did. For such companies to thrive there has to be a change in our collective view of such claims. We seem to have lost our healthy scepticism of yesteryear or we regard false claims as more the "norm" that we once did and at best a minor, if not even a lovable fault if presented in, dare I say it, a Barnum fashion.

If something sounds too good to be true it usually is as you suspected was the case and have now concluded

pentaxuser

Paul Verizzo · Mar 15, 2019

mdarnton said:
If you want T-Max 400, buy that.
I don't understand your complaint that something that isn't T-Max isn't T-Max.

Did you read my post? I said that. And I said that I went and bought the real deal. It was a $20 experiment, ya know?

And you never thought you'd find something as good as something else? I guess you didn't live through the Arista 100 and 400 films a few years back. Absolutely, positively Plus-X and Tri-X. It was certainly possible that the UF UM was Kodak. Or, Delta.

Paul Verizzo · Mar 15, 2019

pentaxuser said:
It seems that the middle line above was always the conclusion you'd reach based on your scepticism of the company's claim and you duly did. For such companies to thrive there has to be a change in our collective view of such claims. We seem to have lost our healthy scepticism of yesteryear or we regard false claims as more the "norm" that we once did and at best a minor, if not even a lovable fault if presented in, dare I say it, a Barnum fashion.

If something sounds too good to be true it usually is as you suspected was the case and have now concluded

pentaxuser

Not always. See the Arista 100 and 400 films a few years ago. Plus-X and Tri-X for $2/roll.

Paul Verizzo · Mar 15, 2019

AgX said:
Agfa makes T-grain films too.

They do? What is it called? Was it ever available in the US?

If this is indeed Agfa and is indeed T-grain, it's not up to their usual quality.

AgX · Mar 15, 2019

Still available fresh in the USA.

Paul Verizzo · Mar 15, 2019

AgX said:
Still available fresh in the USA.

As what? Not that I know everything.....by huge margins.......I've never heard of such a critter. This is the list of Agfa B&W films from Wikipedia. All pre-cessation of consumer film production, of course. Which one was it? And who sells it? Fresh?

Black & White films:

Agfa PD16
Agfapan 25, 100 and 400
Agfapan APX 25, 100 and 400 (revivals of 100 and 400 emulsion were announced by Adox)
Isopan ISS (Super Special)
Isopan F (Fine Grain)
Isopan Ultra
Isopan Record
Agfa Vario-XL (C-41 process chromogenic film)
Dia-Direct (reversal film)
Scala (reversal film)
Agfacontour Professional film

koraks · Mar 15, 2019

Nodda Duma said:
But do you think that’s because Foma has less stringent process control, or because they didn’t want to go all the way to a T-grain emulsion?

As you hint at, there’s nothing particularly magical about a T-grain emulsion...it’s all in the system for controlling precipitation and ripening.

I can only guess. I would suspect possibly both: (1) stringent process control seems inevitable to reliably make pure tabular emulsions and (2) there may be other strict process tolerances beyond just ripening, e.g. in thickness of the coated emulsion. I'm hazarding a guess here. It may very well be the case that a full tabular emulsion would complicate production in too many ways to make the effort worthwhile for Foma. On a sidenote, I have had significant problems with Foma 200 film in 120 format that seem to be due to insufficient control over the coating process, which could (hazarding a guess) relate to the considerations I mentioned.

mgb74 · Mar 15, 2019

Paul Verizzo said:
Not always. See the Arista 100 and 400 films a few years ago. Plus-X and Tri-X for $2/roll.

When, I suspect, Kodak was trying to deal with excess capacity. But now "Plus-X and Tri-X for $2/roll" has gone the way of the good 5 cent cigar. So it doesn't matter what excellent film was available for cheap then, only what excellent films are available - cheap or otherwise - now.

You did your $20 experiment to find out if the Ultrafine offerings were as good as Kodak and Ilford for you. Your experiment worked because you came to a conclusion.

AgX · Mar 15, 2019

Paul, I spoke of current fresh films, not of your consumer films, partially even gone decades ago.

Paul Verizzo · Mar 23, 2019

Way too late for the party, but I just got confirmation from my insider CS "girl" at Freestyle that yes, indeed, Arista Premium was PX and TX. Damn, wish I had bought a lot of the "100". Still have about six rolls. Obviously mislabeled to lead astray.

Paul Howell · Mar 23, 2019

I believe that Ultra Fine 100 and 400 is made by Harmon, seems to similar to Ketmare (sp?), 100 and 400. In the past Ultrafine sold a lot brands rebranded. They would buy Iflord rolls and cut to sheet sizes. During the collapse of the market Freestyle sold rebranded Kodak, Ilford, (Not HP5 or other current films) and Fuji. Those are long gone. I have use Freestyle T grain 400, not a bad film, not sure who they got it from. As far as Extreme films, 100 and 400 goes, I use a lot of it as my shoot around film, 35mm and 120. I like the 100 best, develop in D76, DDX, Rodinal, and MCM 100. The 400 is ok, but needs a fine grain developer, D76 1:1 works well as does Microdal X. When I need speed tend towards TMAX 400.

Paul Verizzo · Mar 24, 2019

Paul Howell said:
I believe that Ultra Fine 100 and 400 is made by Harmon, seems to similar to Ketmare (sp?), 100 and 400. In the past Ultrafine sold a lot brands rebranded. They would buy Iflord rolls and cut to sheet sizes. During the collapse of the market Freestyle sold rebranded Kodak, Ilford, (Not HP5 or other current films) and Fuji. Those are long gone. I have use Freestyle T grain 400, not a bad film, not sure who they got it from. As far as Extreme films, 100 and 400 goes, I use a lot of it as my shoot around film, 35mm and 120. I like the 100 best, develop in D76, DDX, Rodinal, and MCM 100. The 400 is ok, but needs a fine grain developer, D76 1:1 works well as does Microdal X. When I need speed tend towards TMAX 400.

The original Ultrafine 100 and 400 films were junk, per many comments over many sites over many years. Suspected Chinese. Low grade Chinese. The Extreme, later films are for sure, Kentmere. Again, many comments, many tests, and coincidentally the exact same developing suggestions. And, if not Kentmere, Ilford Pan 100 and Pan 400, but those have different developing times.

I still have and use cassettes from respooled Freestyle T-Max 100, sold as that, no smoke or mirrors. Interesting that they could buy bulk, load into custom printed carts, and still undercut Kodak's price. Also Freestyle Premium, made by Ilford per my FS customer service gal. Many years ago, 1980's, 1990's. Preceding the "film collapse."

But back to my OP question, who makes, what is this alleged T-Grain film by Ultrafine? I can't see it being Kodak movie stock, because those didn't start using T grains until many years after the alleged introduction to the market place date of 1989. Fuji? I think there's a general consensus, or at least conjecture, that Acros is some kind of designer grain, even if not "T." Were they making it back then? Is the fact that 100' rolls are no longer available any kind of clue?

Jon Buffington · Mar 24, 2019

Possible Kodak WL2210? That was t-grain 400speed Surveillance film on estar base, basically the old style tmax 400 before it was changed to the new tmy2. I bought a bulk roll of that stuff of ebay a couple years back. Was fairly good stuff but of course not as good as the modern kodak tmy2.

Here is an older link from here about it https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/surveillance-film.15323/

Paul Verizzo · Mar 25, 2019

Jon Buffington said:
Possible Kodak WL2210? That was t-grain 400speed Surveillance film on estar base, basically the old style tmax 400 before it was changed to the new tmy2. I bought a bulk roll of that stuff of ebay a couple years back. Was fairly good stuff but of course not as good as the modern kodak tmy2.

Here is an older link from here about it https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/surveillance-film.15323/

Never heard of that one. No, it's on a tearable acetate base.

I then realized that the carts are DX coded. From the squares, I was informed that it is ISO 400 (of course!) and that the exposure latitude is -1, +3.

How about the numerical codes, I realized? Well, this site http://industrieplus.net/dxdatabase/ does not have 715730 in the database.

Anyone know of an alternative reference?

trendland · Mar 25, 2019

Paul Verizzo said:
Honestly, where does Photo Warehouse come up with these names?

Anyway, if you don't know, they market a film allegedly since 1989 allegedly T-Grain. Rolls around $4, long rolls.....oops, never in stock....never mind. I've been mighty curious, since to the best of my knowledge only Kodak and Ilford make T-Grains.....maybe Acros was a designer grain, too.......and Ilford didn't come out with Delta after that alleged 1989 date by several years.

I placed an order for the Ultrafine Extreme.....honestly, where does Photo Warehouse come up with these names?...... 100 for a knock about and developer testing film. So I added 5 rolls of the, altogether now, Ultramax.

I use D-76 for a reference developer for new films, but in this case I went straight to my DK-50 diluted 1:1. Just call me impetuous. Per a solid bit of advice on another forum, I use T-Max 1:4 development times for that developer. Always right in the ballpark, like with the Extreme 100.

My first impression out of the tank was that it could have used another 15% more time. But on the scanner, close to perfect.

The film itself is nothing like the T-Max's. Not the base, it's thinner. Different leader color. No pink fixer stain. Only markings are numerical frame counters.

I was real disappointed in the grain, for allegedly being a T type. I went back and looked at my TMY scans and the difference is like a T-Max (of course), and a conventional grain film. Since I don't have any scans of TX of HP5+, I'm just making a jump of logic here.

I'll just use the Ultramax as a faux TX or similar.

I was going to provide scans, but somehow despite all the whirring and results showing, they didn't make it to the hard drive. Technology. What a love/hate relationship.

I guess if you want the real thing, you gotta buy the real thing.

UPDATE: I just did. Buy the real thing. 100' roll at Freestyle, $84. Adorama and B&H, $130. What the heck?

Paul let me ask : Is it this film you refer about ?

what I found via google was also this here :

For boths films : There is nothing about Tgrain.....they mentioned Tgrain but onto the canister
it is suddenly disapered!

I would not give money for that stuff with an exeption of course : Special pricing!
Why not try out a V E R Y C H E A P film? (Perhaps it isn't indeed such worste?)
But T H E N it must be cheaper in comparison of the cheapest bw film of the film market :
This here : ...but I would not order 10 rolls of "Ultramax" at once.....!

And it has to be the 1/2 ....or better the 1/4 price of the Agfa!
For what should one buy such films ? Perhaps you will try out your New developer from home brew
and you don't want to waste expensive films.....your camera is making trouble you want to check it...
a.s.o. AND IF THE FILM IS REALY NICE (I have some doubts) why not to use?

with regards

PS : The normal answer of such dealers is often :" So you are NOT forced to buy this product "

Ahh Paul I understand (this is a free land) so I am not forced - well that is a good thing !
But this normal statement give to the same moment the answer to your question :

Why did they do that (give a film this nonsense name and want to sell) !

They are forced to do....

with regards

PS : This is a free land but they need your money and have had no better idea!

trendland · Mar 25, 2019

Jon Buffington said:
Possible Kodak WL2210? That was t-grain 400speed Surveillance film on estar base, basically the old style tmax 400 before it was changed to the new tmy2. I bought a bulk roll of that stuff of ebay a couple years back. Was fairly good stuff but of course not as good as the modern kodak tmy2.

Here is an older link from here about it https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/surveillance-film.15323/

This is a good hint Jon - but who knows?
From my point it could be everything in bw.(hope it is ISO 400 - that would be fine if the box speed is correct)!

with regards

PS : hope it is indeed bw film (not if the company is mixing issues) and it is expired stuff from bulk:

.....it seams to be true : TODAY EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE! = STRANGE FILM WORLD!

with regards

PS : Such companies are profiteurs of a crisis !

trendland · Mar 25, 2019

I'll just use the Ultramax as a faux TX or similar.

I guess if you want the real thing, you gotta buy the real thing.

[/QUOTE]

Paul a very extreme cheap film was this here :

some like it and some realy hate it (like so often) I got it because my thoughts are (I payed ~ 12 bucks if you count for 30,5 m [my roll have 152,5 m]) my thoughts are : a bw film can't be such bad
that it is unusable (but therefore it should be better from NEW STUFF)

But (so like you stated) the right stuff has also the right price see :

with regards

PS : Friends it should be stated : I don't want to advice you to buy stuff at B&H - you can order anywere you like (B&H seams to be with good pricing) but the reason I have examples via B&H is just simple : I just don't want to confuse you from foreign currencies because the most of you are used to pay in USD (others can compare)!

Paul Verizzo · Mar 25, 2019

Trendline, the general response to your recent postings is, no, no, and no. Some of your thoughts have already been discussed. The seller very specifically says "T-grain." http://www.ultrafineonline.com/ult400.html

koraks · Mar 25, 2019

trendland said:
Paul a very extreme cheap film was this here :

It's cheap for a reason. It's some anonymous movie duplication film stock, very thin base, suffers tremendously from light piping, grain is comparable to what you'd expect from a 200 or 400 speed film although TMY2 will be somewhat less grainy. Quite pronounced toe too. Don't get me wrong, I like it for the occasional project, but it's unfit for general purpose use IMO.

Ultrafine Ultramax 400 "T-grain"

Paul Verizzo

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Ultrafine Ultramax 400 "T-grain"

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