Ultrafine QC issues?

scootermm · Mar 24, 2005

okay..... first I want to plainly state.

I LOVE ULTRAFINE 125 SHEET FILM.

with that said. I had a less than wonderful experience with them recently. Ive been shooting the ultrafine 125 film for the entirety of my large format "life" started with the 4x5 version and it was the first batch of 8x10 film I order. Those first two boxes of 25 were spot on perfect (the film at least.... no so much my exposures on to it ) the next batch of 8x10 I order was a 100 sheet box with only 90 sheets. Then it was replaced. the Second box of 8x10 (100shts) I ordered was light struck. I went to New Orleans and shot over 40 sheets of film. About 7 turned out. all the rest were light struck in almost an identical location. Okay no biggie... it was the camera I thought... it is 100 years old so having a back that is a little leaky in certain spots wouldnt be suprising. But then I shot some JC 100 and also some Provia 100 and both were perfectly exposed... no light pollution.
so I took some advice from some fellow APUGers and developed 4 sheets straight out of the Ultrafine box. of the 4 sheets two were light struck in identical places, one was entirely worse than the other.
so I called photowarehouse and talked with someone there and he asked that I mail them the developed sheets. so I did. this was well over a month ago. I called a week later and he stated they were busy filling orders and that he and a tech would give me a call back after they checked it out.
no problem there. I can relate to being busy.
never heard back from them.
so I called today and was basically told....
Its the nature of the beast (to make a long story short... woops too late)

has anyone else experienced these issues?

Im not badmouthing photowarehouse. I love the film and the 100sheet box I have at present has been perfect and I love the film/developer combo with PyroHD.

I dont make alot of money. but the money I do make alot of it goes to my hobbies of painting and photography so I want to limit my gambles to the aspects that are within my control (loading unloading, exposures, developement etc) and not have to worry about what Im getting in the first place.

I did learn a good strong lesson though.... when I get a new box of film I develope two sheets straight outta the box... no more of this driving 600 miles and getting bad negatives.

david b · Mar 24, 2005

I'm not sure I understand.

What did they tell you today? Did they offer any good film or are you just SOL?

scootermm · Mar 24, 2005

basically SOL.
"it just sorta happens sometimes"

JG Motamedi · Mar 24, 2005

Thanks for making this known. I was going to order some in 11x14, but looks like I will be ordering some Efke instead.

What is SOL?

jmdavis · Mar 24, 2005

So are they invoking their 14 day rule or something else? How many of the bad sheets are left? How many photos were ruined?

Not many people are going to go through a 100 sheet box of 8x10 in 14 days. Realistically no one would expect them to. If anything, they are taking advantage of the fact that you assumed that you rather than they made a mistake. "It happens sometimes," is a fine answer if they are willing to make good on the issue. It's horrible service and support if its an excuse to avoid acting responsibly.

lee · Mar 24, 2005

What is SOL?

Sh*t out of luck!

lee\c

david b · Mar 24, 2005

I would start shopping elsewhere.

Jorge · Mar 24, 2005

I dont know but they seem to have been having problems with their film. Personally I have decided not to take a chance anymore with their film and order from JandC. My last order of 12x20 was a disaster. I ordered 50 sheets and both envelopes of 25 had sheets that were too long for the holder, in addition the last few sheets had clear problems with uneven coating and what looked like the film had been frozen and then thawed, cut and placed back in the envelopes forming some kind of condensation that stained the negatives. While I would have chalked this up to once in a while occurrence, the same thing happened to Gerhard, who came to visit and had bought 200 sheets of 4x5 and many of them had the same problem.....12x20 film, even the PW one, is too expensive to gamble on shoddy QC....

jimgalli · Mar 24, 2005

I agree with Jorge. Time to change. Add to this that when current bulk stock is gone Ilford has said they won't be undercutting their own product by selling cheap bulk so you'll have to break in a new product sooner or later. J&C is just too good to pass up. I'm using nothing but EFKE Cirkut film cut to fit my 8X10 holders. Better film than the Ilford (used just previously). I'm getting the best negs of my life. I would call those folks and raise so much hell..........they'd be begging for mercy. They perhaps are a tiny bit cheaper than J&C but their (J&C's) service is supreme.

scootermm · Mar 24, 2005

thanks all for the info/replies.

Jorge thanks especially for the personal experience info. its only affirmed what I was leaning towards. I cant say "glad to hear it" because Im not for your sake (12x20 is alot of film real estate to have not be spot on) or for mine.
JandC pro 100 was great. in the interim between splotchy film I order a 25sht package of 8x10 JandC and really enjoyed it.
I think from this point on Im sticking with JandC. The shoudy QC and the bad customer service (the fact that I had to call them back alone, much less the verbal experience on the phone today) have confirmed what I was afraid of.

on to the JandC film for me I guess.

Mike A · Mar 24, 2005

jmdavis said:
So are they invoking their 14 day rule or something else? How many of the bad sheets are left? How many photos were ruined?

Not many people are going to go through a 100 sheet box of 8x10 in 14 days. Realistically no one would expect them to. If anything, they are taking advantage of the fact that you assumed that you rather than they made a mistake. "It happens sometimes," is a fine answer if they are willing to make good on the issue. It's horrible service and support if its an excuse to avoid acting responsibly.

Oh boy, I just orderd 100 sheets of 11x14. I guess i'll be testing some of these.

Jorge · Mar 24, 2005

scootermm said:
thanks all for the info/replies.

on to the JandC film for me I guess.

I cant speak for John, but I get the feeling he would not use the "sorry, I am too busy to help you" excuse. IMO another reason to start buying from him..

Ed Sukach · Mar 24, 2005

Hang loose, gang.

It took a few - three eMails, but I've just received my order from Ultrafine - Photo Ware house - for 100 & 100 sheets of RA-4 Color Paper and `powder' A- 4 chemistry.

The major question will be the RA - 4 chemistry. The packages indicate the usual color developer and separate bleach-fix... but an operation temperature of 86 degrees F. I get the impression that they were intended for use in some sort of "digital" printing operation. It remains to be seen how useful they are in "traditional" color printing. Stay tuned.

The Struggle for Color Fidelity (SCF) will have to wait until tomorrow. I've just returned from a local "Time" complete with wet - very wet, and very open ... bar.

I wonder what this will look like tomorrow...

Nick Zentena · Mar 25, 2005

Wouldn't lower temp be slower? Seems wierd that it's for digital? Those guys want faster. 86F sounds familar. Wasn't it used for some older process?

scootermm · Mar 25, 2005

ASTOUNDING

I just received a call from Greg at Photowarehouse.
due to some miscommunication (perhaps on my part as yesterday was what some would call a "sheisty" day) I got off the phone call with the sense that I was just SOL and was out a box of film.
that was not the case in the least bit.
I guess Greg had received an email. with a link to this thread and I received a phone call just now with some wonderful information on their procedures there at photowarehouse.
Im being sent a new replacement box of film to remedy the light struck box I got in the first place.

So to clarify, and given this information, I will continue to purchase my film from photowarehouse. Greg was very kind and professional in explaining things to me and very apologetic that I was left with the wrong impression after our previous phone call.

a big hearty thank you to photowarehouse and I also would like to highly recommend them to anyone.
Any company (small or big) that would go out of their way to call a customer to explain things is good in my book.

again. wonderful news. They are commited to continuing to carry sheet film so I will continue to use a film I know and love.

Thought Id share that with all.

david b · Mar 25, 2005

glad to hear things worked out in the end.

andrewfrith · Mar 25, 2005

I have had good experiences with Ultrafine's customer service..I just spoke to one of them on the phone the other day..i was interested in their direct dupe film..2 days later, i have some sheets sent to me as samples to try.

Gspitzer · Mar 30, 2005

Photowarehouse QC

Jorge said:
I dont know but they seem to have been having problems with their film. Personally I have decided not to take a chance anymore with their film and order from JandC. My last order of 12x20 was a disaster. I ordered 50 sheets and both envelopes of 25 had sheets that were too long for the holder, in addition the last few sheets had clear problems with uneven coating and what looked like the film had been frozen and then thawed, cut and placed back in the envelopes forming some kind of condensation that stained the negatives. While I would have chalked this up to once in a while occurrence, the same thing happened to Gerhard, who came to visit and had bought 200 sheets of 4x5 and many of them had the same problem.....12x20 film, even the PW one, is too expensive to gamble on shoddy QC....

Jorge- I work for Photowarehouse and I put in place a policy for sheet film. I noticed a problem with the size issue of sheet film. My solution was to talk with every customer that wanted to order from us and make sure of the exact size they wanted the film to be cut. Some customers have "custom made" camera backs with odd sizes. Now if a customer calls up and tells me he wants some film (no matter what size) I asked them if they have film that they are currently using that fits, to measure it and tell me the size and that is what we will cut it to. A "standard" 4" x 5" film holder, is just that- 4" x 5" so if the film is cut 4" x 5" it will not fit. It has to be smaller by at least a 1/32" to fit. Most film is "under cut" a 1/16" which we do. So 4" x 5" sheet film is really
3 15/16" x 4 15/16" in order for it to fit.
(8" x 10" = 7 15/16" x 9 15/16") Some customers don't use a film holder, maybe they are making large negs on a vertical or horizontal camera, so with these customers we cut the film to 8" x 10" not under cut. UNFORTUNATELY the policy I put in place has been ignored a few times and the size issue problem arises. Now with regards to fogged or light struck film, it can happen. This film has to be cut in total darkness (which is a challenge, to say the least) and also packaged and boxed. Now sometimes the film is cut, packaged (in total darkness) but them it's put in a box in the light and in this case, if there is a hole in the plastic bag then you get the light strike. As far as our film being old, frozen, thawed, IMPOSSIBLE. We buy this type and many other types of film on a "master roll" (60" x 2000') and it's brand new film.
If anyone would like to discuss any further, feel free to call 1-800-922-5484 or Email: greg@photowarehouse.biz
Thanks, Greg Spitzer/Photowarehouse

Jorge · Mar 30, 2005

Gspitzer said:
Jorge- I work for Photowarehouse and I put in place a policy for sheet film. I noticed a problem with the size issue of sheet film. My solution was to talk with every customer that wanted to order from us and make sure of the exact size they wanted the film to be cut. Some customers have "custom made" camera backs with odd sizes. Now if a customer calls up and tells me he wants some film (no matter what size) I asked them if they have film that they are currently using that fits, to measure it and tell me the size and that is what we will cut it to. A "standard" 4" x 5" film holder, is just that- 4" x 5" so if the film is cut 4" x 5" it will not fit. It has to be smaller by at least a 1/32" to fit. Most film is "under cut" a 1/16" which we do. So 4" x 5" sheet film is really
3 15/16" x 4 15/16" in order for it to fit.
(8" x 10" = 7 15/16" x 9 15/16") Some customers don't use a film holder, maybe they are making large negs on a vertical or horizontal camera, so with these customers we cut the film to 8" x 10" not under cut. UNFORTUNATELY the policy I put in place has been ignored a few times and the size issue problem arises. Now with regards to fogged or light struck film, it can happen. This film has to be cut in total darkness (which is a challenge, to say the least) and also packaged and boxed. Now sometimes the film is cut, packaged (in total darkness) but them it's put in a box in the light and in this case, if there is a hole in the plastic bag then you get the light strike. As far as our film being old, frozen, thawed, IMPOSSIBLE. We buy this type and many other types of film on a "master roll" (60" x 2000') and it's brand new film.
If anyone would like to discuss any further, feel free to call 1-800-922-5484 or Email: greg@photowarehouse.biz
Thanks, Greg Spitzer/Photowarehouse

Greg, thank you for the explanation but I have some comments in regards to the issues of size and damaged film. It is not the first time I have ordered your cirkut cut 12x20 film, the 3 previous orders fit perfectly in the holders, not so with the last order of 50 sheets. I did not considered this a big enough deal to e mail you guys and go through the hassle of sending the film back from Mexico (very expensive for me) and wait to get another order.

More worrisome is the issue of damaged film. These were not light leaks, but clear defects in the film emulsion. I still have the sheets if you want me to send them to you. Of the last 8 shots I took with my 12x20, 3 came out with flaws, most importantly while I have had the film for a while and have stored it correctly you could say that it could have been my fault, but then I had friend come visit on February and he bought 200 sheets of the 4x5 size from you, of 40 pictures he took, approximately 5 or 6 (dont recall exactly) came out with the same flaw as in my 12x20 negatives.

While I commend you for posting here and I suppose give us/me some explanation and a measure of customer service, living in Mexico I cannot afford to gamble on defective film. Sending it back is not an option, mail is very expensive and takes too long, and sending it by courier is equally expensive. Shipping the box back would have cost me more than $100 USD, which is what I am charged when I order film from you. If I lived in the US I would have no problem sending it back to you and giving you another chance, living outside the US forces me to rely on my suppliers to give me a perfect product a 100% of the time given the fact that I pay 80 to a 100% more in shipping and import fees....

Gspitzer · Mar 30, 2005

Jorge- anytime a customer buys a product from us and there is a problem, I will pick up on my dime. It does make it difficult when outside of the USA, as a matter of fact we stopped shipping film to many locations outside the U.S. The reason for this is that more and more packages are being inspected, x-ray, opened unfortuately because of the 9-11 attack. Once the film leaves the U.S. I have no control over what happens to it in transit. Just a note for any photographer: if you are planning a trip (photo shoot) it's best to test your film before you travel.
Thanks, Greg

Ed Sukach · Mar 31, 2005

Ed Sukach said:
Hang loose, gang.
It took a few - three eMails, but I've just received my order from Ultrafine - Photo Ware house - for 100 & 100 sheets of RA-4 Color Paper and `powder' A- 4 chemistry.
The major question will be the RA - 4 chemistry. The packages indicate the usual color developer and separate bleach-fix... but an operation temperature of 86 degrees F. I get the impression that they were intended for use in some sort of "digital" printing operation. It remains to be seen how useful they are in "traditional" color printing. Stay tuned.

Well --- The first problem is that what I thought to be "RA-4 Chemistry" wasn't'.

It DEFINITELY is Black and White Print developer and Fixer. Took a few test strips to figure that out.

As usual, when I find myself using something mismatched like this, I retrace my line of thought that led me to believe something else, and order the wrong stuff.
The packing slip lists "Ultrafine RA Developer, - Powder - #901-221"; and "Ultrafine Rapid Access Fixer - Powder #901-211.
The information on the Ultrafine Web site, and in their Catalog, agrees.
Obviously, "RA" - Rapid Access" here refers to "Rapid Access Black and White" -- which I confused with the usual "RA-4" Color Print chemistry.

I can't say it was anything other than an error on my part... only, I usually can figure out how it happened after the fact. In this case. I can't. From the information as I see it now - I wouldn't have purchased the chemistry, or at least, would have questioned its use.

Now... the next step will be to try Ultrafine RA-4 Color Paper in Teteanal RA-4 chemistry.

Nick Zentena · Mar 31, 2005

Could it be Lith developer? I think they sell lith film.

wfwhitaker · Mar 31, 2005

I've just finished developing my first 7x11 negatives on Photowarehouse Ultrafine 125 film and am very pleased with the results. Photowarehouse custom cut the film for this format and it's dead-on specification; it fits the film holders perfectly. The film looks good with no evidence of light infiltration.

Greg was very helpful with this order in spite of the fact that it took a little longer than promised. But then, it was a custom order. My experience with dealing with Photowarehouse over the telephone frankly did not inspire confidence until I spoke directly with Greg. From that point on things went smoothly and I'm very happy with the end result. I wish I could feel as confident dealing with anyone at PW who answers the telephone, but frankly I don't. I look forward to placing future orders with PW, but with Greg's help.

Ed Sukach · May 2, 2005

I've been "wringing out" Ultrafine's RA-4 color paper.

So far It looks **VERY** good. One of the first sheets appeared not to have been cut correctly - the edges were not "square", but that seems to have been an isolated anomaly.

Everything seem to be in order. Balancing a grey card with the Colorstar 3000 indicates a different "basic" balance than either Ilfocolor or Fuji Crystal Archive, but not unreasonably so.

Color - Excellent blacks and whites - and definition are first rate. There is more - Other attributes are to be determined. Hopefully it will be as uniform lot-to-lot and size-to-size as Ilfocolor; and will be free from color change over time.

So far, so good. I would ignore the "low price" from Ultrafine; apparently it is not directly proportional to the paper quality.

More to come as I work with this.

John Kasaian · May 2, 2005

The big question in my mind is: will Photo Warehouse continue to cut Ultrafine 125 (lford FP-4-oid)in ULF sizes now that Ilford has appears to have abandoned the ULF market? That would certainly be a niche in the market!

Ultrafine QC issues?

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