Ultra Low Freezer Ideal for Long Term Film Stockpile?

[Andre Noble]

Hello, is it ideal to deep freeze ie, -30C or colder, film (all ASA ranges 25 - 3200) to get the maximum long term preservation from them?

Or is a normal freezer (~ -15C or 5 F) going to give you *almost* (95% or better the same benefit).

Keep in mind this is for 20+ years storage as color film is about to go bye bye for good - as difficult as it is to accept.

Interested only in discussion of deep freeze vs normal freeze on ultra long term color film preservation. Thanks

And yes, I already know that for 10 to 20 year term, we are only talking here ASA 50 and ASA 100 film. Already know that, thanks. Already know about cosmic rays too.

 

[Felinik]

Found this interesting information on kodak.com


Temperature
In general, the lower the temperature at which a film is stored, the slower its rate of sensitometric change during aging will be. For periods up to three months, store motion picture raw stock at a temperature of 13°C (55°F) or lower, and a relative humidity of 60% or lower, during the entire storage period to retain optimum film properties.

Protect film in original packages or loaded in cameras, cartridges, magazines, on reels, and in carrying cases from direct sunlight. Never leave film in closed spaces that may trap heat. Temperatures in closed automobiles, parked airplanes, or the holds of ships can easily reach 60°C (140°F) or more. A few hours under these conditions, either before or after exposure, can severely affect film quality. If processing facilities are not immediately available, store exposed films at –18°C (0°F) but only for a few weeks at most.

Store raw stock at -18C to -23°C (0 to -10°F) if you must keep it longer than three months or if you intend to use it for a critical use that requires uniform results. Sensitometric change cannot be prevented by such storage, but it will be minimized.




http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uplo...wsletters_filmEss_12_Storage_and_Handling.pdf

 

[Gerald C Koch]

IIRC, Agfa stored their uncut film rolls at -10 C. This would indicate that a lower temperature was neither necessary nor cost effective. In addition remember that background radiation and cosmic rays will also cause fogging and storage temperature has no effect on these two factors.

 

[DREW WILEY]

High-speed films don't keep well at all; and don't see how extreme cold would help the more typical
ASA preservation issue either. You've got not only the emulsion to consider, but whether or not its
integrity in relation to a particular film base is affected. At a certain point these become brittle or might develop some kind of "memory" curl issue, at least with roll films. I don't have the science or correct teminology explain it, but know from experience that it happens. Good sense planning is one
thing, panic another. And trying to keep color film good for more than a decade is problematic.

 

[Andre Noble]

I've seen that Kodak info, it's insufficient for my needs. They are talking storage as a matter of only months. But neither Kodak nor Agfa nor anyone else envisioned it would be necessary to store films for years, decades.

Maybe with perhaps a science lab & photography background for outside of the box thinking could chime in.

 

[Andre Noble]

Good sense planning is one
thing, panic another. And trying to keep color film good for more than a decade is problematic.

We will see Drew when in ten years you'll be paying $100 a sheet for 8x10 Kodak color negative film (and willingly). Remember Polaroid type 55? and all the great emulsions that represented decades of chemical engineering genius that are now extinct. It's that time for c-41 & E6 emulsions. There are a lot of men - analogue photographers out there in denial.

It's time to panic but, Drew. Panic Buy!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Andre - my freezer is already full, and a lot of that film was bought at about a third the price it's going for now. And as I shoot some, I intend to replace it and rotate the inventory. But given a fair
amt of experience having already done this for some time, I'm skeptical of color film stored over the
long term - things go wrong. Certain graphics films might store better. I know that Kodak was still
selling Tech Pan for ten years after their emulsion line for it was shut down! But when they did the
same thing with EDupe, a low-speed color lab film, it was already going bad with crossover upon
delivery! I shoot large format conservatively anyway, and have far more shots already on file than
I'll ever live to print. We analog shooters a least know what we want, and don't have to replace
entire systems every few years.

 

[PhotoJim]

I think we have longer than you think we have, but the point is largely irrelevant. Films store only so well. Colder is better, but faster emulsions will be damaged by cosmic rays whether stoled very cold or not. Also, we have the issue of colour shifts to deal with, and they're rather unavoidable.

Also, if C41 and E6 films disappear, so too will their specialized developers. Perhaps it's possible to make these from scratch, but some of the ingredients (e.g. Kodak CD-3 and CD-4) will be gone as surely as the films would be, no?

Your best bets for freezing will be low temperatures combined with slow films and hoping to heck that chemistry continues to be available.

In the meantime I plan to shoot it as long as it's viable and if it goes away, there's nothing I could really have done about it anyway. I'm doing my part, but there have to be enough of us.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Another problem with color films is that over the long haul the film you prefer might not have an ideal
mate in terms of print medium, at least if you're serious about printing. Cibachrome lasted about a decade longer than I thought it would, and I still have several boxes of 8x10 E100G in the Freezer that won't have any application, other than perhaps a rare dye transfer printing session, or perhaps
and interneg. I've switched over to RA4 CAII and Ektar. But that marriage could end someday too, or
perhaps even a better film come on the market. You can't control all the risks, and at some point just have to bend with the punches. I think RA4 and probably C41 too will be around for quite awhile.

 

[Andre Noble]

8 Years Past Expiration date Kodak E100SW straight scan from Nikon 9000

I bought this film expired in a room temp bin at camera store 8 years ago. I froze it for 8 years in regular freezer (not deep freeze), then shot it 6 months ago. Stayed in Mamiya RZ, exposed, for those 6 months before developing.

Based on all shots, my guess is a +3 or +4 CC magenta shift. Probably less shift if not sitting in bin at camera store + if I processed immediately (I personally feel time left sitting in camera after exposure and at room temp is where MOST of current color shift came from).

The point of this photo is that this film still looks GOOD from a fine art perspective.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

My film stockpile is stored at –20°c long-term in an ordinary deep freeze. It requires 24 hours to thaw out before loading.
There are two rolls of Kodachrome 200 36 exposures still in the stockpile with an expiration of July 1988 (!).
I suspect that toward 5 years beyond expiry there would be a noticeable shift in the palette of films one knows well. One such old film (Velvia 120, bought on a whim in New Zealand when it was commonly available!) is loaded in my 67 (expiry November 2006).

 

[Sirius Glass]

In a standard freezer for over 6 years, I have seen no degradation with Kodak Ultra Color 400 in 135 or 120.

 

[jm94]

If you were to store RA4 paper in this way long term... doesn't ambient radiation slowly fog the papers? I have used unfrozen paper (Fuji Crystal archive 5x7) thats a decade old that worked well at higher filtration settings and still have some left but 2 decades old TETENAL 3x5.5 that had been frozen at -15C for 20 years had yellow whites... Has an artistic use for me though and still have 1 and a half boxes left... Yet old supra III which had been stored at -18C for 10 years was fine without a problem Never heard of the problem with film and I'm sure 35mm in particular will be protected somewhat by the metal cassette? I read kodak TMAX? 3200 and other very high speed films would fog if outside a metal cassette for too long

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

^ I don't know if we have metal cassettes for 35mm nowadays... who still has them?

 

[PhotoJim]

^ I don't know if we have metal cassettes for 35mm nowadays... who still has them?

A millimetre of metal isn't enough to stop cosmic ray fogging.

Kodak famously stored film kilometres underground in abandoned mines to help prevent cosmic ray fogging. I think fogging is reduced, but not eliminated, by doing this.

Cosmic rays can and do pass through the Earth, although there is some minor attenuation from what I understand.

 

[holmburgers]

A conservator/preservationist would look at this problem using the Arrhenius equation.

The question is if "really cold" can be bested by "super cold". The reality is that at "really cold" temps, you've probably already reached an asymptote in terms of degradation due to temperature. The difference from 50°C to 20°C is huge, but the difference from 20° to -10° is probably significantly less impactful.

Complete speculation on my part, but those are my thoughts.

People always say "cosmic rays", but I'd like to know specifically which ones. Neutrinos pass through matter almost completely unscathed, though I'm pretty sure they're not going to affect film. I guess if Kodak used mines, any kind of thin lead shielding would be futile...

 

[Simonh82]

Cosmic rays are high energy particles created either in the upper atmosphere through the interaction of the sun's solar wind with the earth's magnetic field, or particles directly from the sun and other celestial bodies/events such as supernova. They are not neutrinos which as you suggested are likely to pass through the earth unscathed. They are more likely to be high energy electrons or atomic nuclei.

I visited Cern a few years ago and they had a floor that lit up tracers when they were hit by cosmic rays and it was constantly criss-crossed by flashes. There are a heck of a lot of them out there.

 

[Mark Fisher]

You might do some searching on Micheal Smith. He stored (stores?) Super XX film and Azo until he ran out. I believe he has a walk in freezer of a standard sort. I seem to remember that the long term problem was radiation more than temperature. Now if you want to really go crazy, our lab has a -80C freezer.....wrapped with a foot or so of lead might help things a bit (until it falls though the floor under its own weight!)

 

[E76]

I remember reading something about Micheal Smith's Super XX stockpile. If I recall correctly, despite being frozen, it wasn't too long before the fog level started to increase. Given that this was a B&W film, I wouldn't expect color to fair very well at all over decade a more.

 

[Steve Smith]

Although colder is better, I doubt that it's linear. So the extra effort you put into it to get it super cool probably doesn't add much benefit.


Steve.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Put your film in the deep freeze that you have access to at home. What you are asking about in re "ultra-low temperature storage" is unproven, unless there is empirical and peer-reviewed research to the contrary and additional research that confirms it has been done. My theory is that cryovac / ultralow temperature storage of film would embrittle it and leave it unuseable. Medicine / nuclear medicine has definite uses for cryovac and ultralow temperature storage, but not photographers. Perhaps pose the question to a university with access to or knowledge of extreme temperatures and/or cryostorage.

There are other questions. I doubt your deep freeze, or fridge, will last 20 years. Even we humans cannot guarantee we can live 20 years (but hope to go much longer than that!). And on that realist note, we are posturing up and down worrying about film! Stock it (and much more importantly, use it) while you can and while facilities to make use of it exist, but live one day at a time.

 

[Steve Smith]

and much more importantly, use it while you can.

Very important!

I have never kept film long enough to consider keeping it in the cold. I buy it and use it within a few weeks. Cold storage isn't going to make any difference for that short a time.


Steve.

 

[PKM-25]

Keep in mind this is for 20+ years storage as color film is about to go bye bye for good - as difficult as it is to accept.

Interested only in discussion of deep freeze vs normal freeze on ultra long term color film preservation. Thanks

Why the statement on the bottom when you have made the one on top...twice?

I think it is time I started a new forum, nobitterfilmusersallowed.com

 

[jp80874]

With the big storms we have had this summer some areas have lost power for a week. Best budget for a generator to run that freezer and a few other things around the house.

John Powers

 

[Andre Noble]

Why the statement on the bottom when you have made the one on top...twice?

Dude I don't even know you.