ULF and the Grand Landscape

TheFlyingCamera · Feb 23, 2006

I don't know about grand landscapes yet, but I am working on assembling a 12x20 kit. I got my 600 Apo-Germinar from you, Kerry, but I'd be interested in seeing a list of lenses that DO cover 12x20, for something a bit shorter. BTW, I finally have it mounted on a lensboard and tried it out on the ground glass on my 8x10. Looks good so far, but I haven't put any film behind it yet. Between the weight of the lens and the massive bellows extension, my camera gets a bit wigglety, which would make anything i shot with it go soft.

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 23, 2006

Jim Chinn said:
I think it becomes harder and harder to find good landscape work in the tradition of Adams only because so much has been done of the same locations and subjects over and over. Sometimes my eyes glaze over as soon as I see the name Yosemite or words slot canyon or arch in the title of a portfolio or photo article.

Jim,

I hear this a lot, and I see a LOT of color work of these locations, but other than Adams himself, I seem to see relatively little published large format black and white landscape work these days. While places like Yosemite Valley and Antelope Canyon are swarming with photographers, there are many other places in the American West that are no less spectacular that receive far less attention - at least from the large format crowd, especially the ULF "crowd" (not really enough ULF shooters around to call them a full-fledged crowd).

Back when I was shooting full time, I hit all the popular spots, many multiple times, and I frequently ran into other full time pros, but they were all 4x5 color shooters. Other than one guy shooting the Watchman from the bridge (literally on the shouder of the road) in Zion with an 11x14, I can't recall ever seeing a ULF shooter in any of these locations.

Personally, as my travel time is limited these days, I plan to shoot closer to home - here in Oregon and neighboring Washington. Plenty of "grand" subject matter within a few hours drive. I'm sure there has to be other ULF shooters here in the NW, but I have never seen any out shooting in the places I like to go. So, maybe I'll be the first to haul a ULF rig into some of the places I plan to go.

Kerry

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 23, 2006

John Kasaian said:
What I like about ULF is the luxury of space! Like Ansel Adams later work, where the sky predominated the landscape, I feel this works very well with my ULF endeavors---it makes big look even bigger!

John,

I also like a good sky in my work - be it color or black and white.

Kerry

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 23, 2006

roteague said:
I've been following this thread; you peaked my interest when you asked about the "Grand Landscape" - I've been trying to do the grand landscapes for years. But, I think I will stick with 4x5 and Velvia.

Robert,

Same here. I've been shooting 4x5 Velvia since the day it was introduced (and Fujicrome 50 before that). I've also shoot 4x10 Velvia (and have a couple years worth in the freezer).

However, for 7x17, I plan to shoot only black and white. Even if 7x17 Velvia was available, find some place to process it becomes an issue, and the cost per shot would be enormous.

Kerry

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 23, 2006

TheFlyingCamera said:
but I'd be interested in seeing a list of lenses that DO cover 12x20, for something a bit shorter.

A few shorter lenses that are supposed to cover 12x20:

355mm G Claron

355mm or 360mm Symmar - the older convertible Symmar. Older samples in Compound No. 5 shutters are labeled 360mm f5.6. I have a later sample in a Copal No. 3 that is labeled 355mm f6.8

450mm Nikkor M

For more, do a search on 12x20 lenses Sandy King

Kerry

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 23, 2006

OK, it sounds like several other people are in the same boat as me - either just gearing up for ULF are recently started. A couple people shoot an occasional "grand landscape" with their ULF gear, but "urban landscapes" and/or "intimate landscapes" seem to be more popular these days.

What I'm really looking for are examples of current or recent photographers shooting "grand landscapes" with 11x14, 7x17, 8x20 or 12x20 cameras. The example that immediately leaps to mind is Clyde Butcher. Can anyone name anybody else shooting similar work in any of the ULF formats? Anybody working out West? I keep hearing about all these places that have been "shot to death". So, has anybody shot them to death with a ULF camera? If so, who?

I'm not trying to be facetious. I plan to do a fair bit of hiking with my 7x17 and I'm curious to see the work of others who have done so, and I'd also like to learn about the obstacles they faced and hopefully how they overcame them. I may be totally naive to think I can haul a ULF outfit into some of the places I plan to go, but I've carried heavy loads before, and while the big camera will limit how far I can travel in a day, or how many days I can spend in the wilderness at a time, I don't think the obstacles I will encounter will be insurmountable. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I plan to give it a try anyway. Worst case - I resort to shooting "road kills" in some of the most beautiful places in the world.

Kerry

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 23, 2006

It's funny that this thread has morphed into another "lens thread". That was not my intent, but it's understandable. If you just go by the specs, it would appear there aren't a lot of ULF lenses out there. So, it's good to share first hand (or even second hand) knowledge.

It does remind me why I decided to dive into ULF. It all started when I got a 240mm Computar at a fairly reasonable price off eBay using "Buy It Now!". Once I had that lens, I needed to figure out what to do with it. I got the idea to "make" a 7x17 camera based on an ARCA-SWISS chassis, similar to my 4x10. Then I traded a different lens to a friend for a couple beautiful 7x17 film holders, then Kodak and Ilford offered to sell me all the 7x17 film I wanted. So, here I am, ready to give it a try - and it all started with that one lens.

So, my advice, if you ever see a 240mm Computar on eBay with an affordable "Buy It Now!" price, either snatch it up knowing that you will then need to buy a big camera, film holders, film, probably a sturdier tripod and head, a bigger pack, probably some more lenses, a new darkroom, a freezer to store your film, etc., or do the smart thing and run the other way. Even if the lens is free, it will cost you a fortune in the long run.

Kerry

lee · Feb 23, 2006

Michael A Smith-8x20
Art Sinsabaugh-12x20

Two of my favorites.

lee\c

colrehogan · Feb 23, 2006

kthalmann said:
It's funny that this thread has morphed into another "lens thread". That was not my intent, but it's understandable. If you just go by the specs, it would appear there aren't a lot of ULF lenses out there. So, it's good to share first hand (or even second hand) knowledge.
Kerry

Okay, I plan to try and shoot some of the 'grand' landscape around here with my 5x12 outfit when I get it. But I will also shoot some of the more intimate details of the landscape here too. At the moment, my 8x10 lenses range from 159 mm Wollensak to 19 in. Artar. I may add another lens or two, but for the moment, I think I'm fine for lenses.

However, I like Kerik's work with ULF.

scootermm · Feb 23, 2006

lee said:
Michael A Smith-8x20
Art Sinsabaugh-12x20

as I read through this thread I thought of these two names.... lee beat me to it.

kerry I dont know "exactly" whats considered grand landscapes in your opinion, and if said grand landscapes are even possible in Texas... but heres a few of mine Id consider "not-so-grand" grand landscapes....
http://www.scootermagruder.com/photography/newwork/roadsidehsHwy306.jpg
http://www.scootermagruder.com/photography/newwork/morningfogLonetree717_PD.jpg
http://www.scootermagruder.com/photography/newwork/wimberleyPD717.jpg
http://www.scootermagruder.com/photography/landscapenature/PDhillcountry.jpg
this above one I had to hike a good bit to finally get to where it was what I was looking for.

I think the concept of hiking with a ULF setup is workable and manageable for sure. Good backpack seems the key piece of the puzzle.

Besk · Feb 23, 2006

Kerry, I found a mint 270/9 Computar for $180.00. That too got me started.
Now I have the lens, a 19" RD Artar and one fillm holder. Still no camera and two camera projects to complete ahead of that one.

And that doesn't even include the old tandem bicycle I found on the side of the road that begs to be refurbished and upgraded!

Jim Chinn · Feb 23, 2006

kthalmann said:
Jim,

I hear this a lot, and I see a LOT of color work of these locations, but other than Adams himself, I seem to see relatively little published large format black and white landscape work these days. While places like Yosemite Valley and Antelope Canyon are swarming with photographers, there are many other places in the American West that are no less spectacular that receive far less attention - at least from the large format crowd, especially the ULF "crowd" (not really enough ULF shooters around to call them a full-fledged crowd).

Back when I was shooting full time, I hit all the popular spots, many multiple times, and I frequently ran into other full time pros, but they were all 4x5 color shooters. Other than one guy shooting the Watchman from the bridge (literally on the shouder of the road) in Zion with an 11x14, I can't recall ever seeing a ULF shooter in any of these locations.

Personally, as my travel time is limited these days, I plan to shoot closer to home - here in Oregon and neighboring Washington. Plenty of "grand" subject matter within a few hours drive. I'm sure there has to be other ULF shooters here in the NW, but I have never seen any out shooting in the places I like to go. So, maybe I'll be the first to haul a ULF rig into some of the places I plan to go.

Kerry

I will amend my previous comments in light of your post Kerry. There are a lot of places in the west and probably Canada that are yet to be revealed in a significant way by a photographer. So while the same places seem to get photographed over and over (easiest access probably one reason) I salute those who strive to work off the road less traveled.

John Bartley · Feb 23, 2006

Isn't it true that the "grand landscape" exists only in the minds of a photographer and that particular viewer who looks at the picture and agrees with that photographer?

So, if we take pictures of any landscape that pleases our eye, and then that picture pleases someone else, then haven't we created a grand landscape?

And, the only way to do that is to take pictures and put them out there for people to look at?

We don't need to worry about what others have photographed - we can do our own.

I have a few idea for these landscapes and I have a lens (thanks to that Galli guy ) and I have almost an entire 9x23 landscape camera planned out in my mind to build this year.

Early Riser · Feb 23, 2006

Jorge said:
I dont know if it is grand but here is a 12x20 for you......

Nice shot Jorge.

I think what Kerry is referring to as "grand landscape" are those giant vista shots. Not the smaller more intimate scenes. I think the grand landscape is perfect for the ULF cameras as that subject matter really benefits from the incredible detail recorded by a ULF.

Personally I shoot no bigger than 4x5" and 6x17cm as they give me far more portability and the ability to experiment a bit more because the film cost, in both cash and carry weight, are far less.

Shinnya · Feb 23, 2006

I agree.

On top of that, it is not specific to a particular location either. It is not so much of "where" and "what", but "how," like old saying:

"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."

Warmly,
Tsuyoshi

John Bartley said:
Isn't it true that the "grand landscape" exists only in the minds of a photographer and that particular viewer who looks at the picture and agrees with that photographer?

Mike A · Feb 23, 2006

I tried finding a Computar when I first purchased my 11x14 on a recommendation from Sandy King. I had to settle for a 305 claron form Jim Galli which I'm very happy with, my only other lens is a Nikon 450. I would like to get a 600 to 750 range lens to accompany my other two, I find at times I like to compress my compositions of the "grand landscape".

Good luck,

Mike A

PS: Kerry do you still have those monster Schneiders for sale?

avandesande · Feb 23, 2006

In new mexico there are 4 or 5 spots that have been photographed to death, and the rest of it is untouched. It is a huge state. I don't think anyone has even scratched the surface here. I plan to scratch some more.

roteague · Feb 23, 2006

kthalmann said:
Robert,

Same here. I've been shooting 4x5 Velvia since the day it was introduced (and Fujicrome 50 before that). I've also shoot 4x10 Velvia (and have a couple years worth in the freezer).

However, for 7x17, I plan to shoot only black and white. Even if 7x17 Velvia was available, find some place to process it becomes an issue, and the cost per shot would be enormous.

Kerry

No worries. I'm enjoying reading this thread. I don't have much to contibute since I mainly shoot 4x5 color, but am enjoying it just the same.

FWIW, I think some here are not thinking outside the box. Yes, there are places in the US that have been pretty well photographed to death, but you should look outside the US. There are many fantastic places that haven't been photographed in ULF. I've seen very few of the type of images you guys shoot in places like the Australian outback, a place which I love to visit. FWIW, I'm planning on meeting a couple of APUG members in Alice Springs this coming October for a shoot, and while I won't be shooting ULF, I may shoot some B&W in addition to my normal color work.

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 23, 2006

Mike A said:
PS: Kerry do you still have those monster Schneiders for sale?

Mike,

If you are referring to the APO Germinars, yes I still have a few 600mm and 750mm lenses left.

Kerry

Aggie · Feb 23, 2006

http://www.roberthallphotography.com/

Robert shoots a 12x20

Jay Packer · Feb 23, 2006

Phil Kember has both 7x17 and 8x20 black and white images of the eastern Sierra Nevada and Death Valley on his websites; some of his work seems to fit into the "grand landscape" genre rather well. See

Dead Link Removed

and

http://www.deathvalleyphoto.com/bw/pages/index.htm

Look for the "Panorama" category on the Death Valley site.

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 23, 2006

lee said:
Michael A Smith-8x20
Art Sinsabaugh-12x20

Lee,

I immediately thought of Micheal Smith. While some of his early work is more in the "grand landscape" tradition, most of his images I have seen don't fit my personal definition of "grand landscape" (not that my personal definition is any more valid than anybody else's). I would personally consider much of what Michael shoots to be more in the vein of "intimate landscapes" or "rural landscapes".

Ditto for Art Sinsabaugh. Strunning work, but the majority of his most memorable images are of the "urban landscape" variety. He does have a couple "grand landscapes" in his American Landscape portfolio, but even in that portfolio most of the images are "rural landscapes".

I realize I left the term "grand lanscape" vaguely defined. I did so on purpose as I didn't want to impose my definition on others. I'm also not trying to be arrogant by lumping the beautiful work of some very accomplished photographers into little pre-defined categories (i.e. "grand landscape", "intimate landscape", "urban landscape", "rural landscape", etc.). And I'm certianly not trying to discount anyone else's work. A good photograph is a good photograph and doesn't need to fit into any particular category. I'm also not claiming any particular type of image is in any way better than any other. That was not my intent. I was just looking for examples of ULF photographers currently or recently shooting a particular type of subjects. Perhaps I need to provide or better definition of what I personally consider "grand landscapes". I'll attempt that in another post.

Kerry

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 23, 2006

Aggie said:
http://www.roberthallphotography.com/

Robert shoots a 12x20

Aggie,

Thanks for the link. Robert Hall is definitely a very accomplished, very talented and very versatile photographer. There are some beautiful images on his web site. I'd love to see some of his prints in person.

However, I do find it a bit ironic that the lead photo on his web site is a beautifully excecuted photo of some sort of industrial machinery (old generators?) taken inside a building with the caption: "Capturing Grand and Intimate Reflections of the Landscape". And while he does have some "grand landscapes" on his web site, it does not constitute the majority of his work.

Again, I'm not trying to discount his work in any way. It's great stuff. However, most of it is not what I'd personally consider "grand landscape".

Kerry

roteague · Feb 23, 2006

David Ward's excellent book "Landscape within - Insights and Inspiration for Photographers" has a good section on what defines a "Grand" and "Intimate" landscape. Of course, it is still an opinion, his, but well thought out.

ReallyBigCameras · Feb 23, 2006

Jay Packer said:
Phil Kember has both 7x17 and 8x20 black and white images of the eastern Sierra Nevada and Death Valley on his websites; some of his work seems to fit into the "grand landscape" genre rather well. See

Dead Link Removed

and

http://www.deathvalleyphoto.com/bw/pages/index.htm

Look for the "Panorama" category on the Death Valley site.

Bingo! That's what I'm talking about when I say "grand landscape". I don't know why I didn't think of Phil Kember. I've visited his web site many times.

Kerry

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