UK photo labs

YoIaMoNwater · Jul 26, 2022

Just got a call from my usual photo lab (Palm Labs in Birmingham) that they are closing down. I have been sending my slides over for the past years and they have been outstanding, so was just a bit shocked that are calling it.

Does anyone know of a good lab here in the UK where I can send my slides and color negs to be developed?

Tom Kershaw · Jul 26, 2022

I haven't used them for film processing myself, however I believe Ag Photolab (also in Birmingham) have a good reputation.

pentaxuser · Jul 26, 2022

There is AgPhotographic which is also in Brum. I don't use labs but those who have used it give.gave it good reports

Did Palm Labs say why it is closing? With colour film experiencing a revival in demand you'd expect a lab would do OK or at least no worse? Might it be that colour film is in such short supply now that while demand very much exceeds supply, this is not enough to maintain labs' businesses

If Palm Labs did give a reason then knowing what that is would be interesting. I can find nothing on its website to indicate that it is closing down

pentaxuser

YoIaMoNwater · Jul 26, 2022

Tom Kershaw said:
I haven't used them for film processing myself, however I believe Ag Photolab (also in Birmingham) have a good reputation.

Thanks Tom, I've decided to send them my films. Gave them a call as I have some hand rolled Portra 160NC and was wondering if they'll have any issues with it. They said just to make a note of it and they'll take care of it.

pentaxuser said:
There is AgPhotographic which is also in Brum. I don't use labs but those who have used it give.gave it good reports

Did Palm Labs say why it is closing? With colour film experiencing a revival in demand you'd expect a lab would do OK or at least no worse? Might it be that colour film is in such short supply now that while demand very much exceeds supply, this is not enough to maintain labs' businesses

If Palm Labs did give a reason then knowing what that is would be interesting. I can find nothing on its website to indicate that it is closing down

pentaxuser

I know they had an issue getting their chemical supplies through back in January, they had to wait for at least 2 months for it to arrive so there were a lot of back orders of films to be developed. As far as I know, there are only two people working there, the owner Steve and another guy.

I didn't ask the exact details, but they said they were not getting enough customers and they are in debt so unfortunately they are shutting down the lab.

pentaxuser · Jul 26, 2022

YoIaMoNwater said:
I know they had an issue getting their chemical supplies through back in January, they had to wait for at least 2 months for it to arrive so there were a lot of back orders of films to be developed. As far as I know, there are only two people working there, the owner Steve and another guy.

I didn't ask the exact details, but they said they were not getting enough customers and they are in debt so unfortunately they are shutting down the lab.

Thanks. Yes it is the last sentence that worries me. There is a good chance that nearly all of the recent C41 colour film users will use a lab so if there really is an upturn in film interest you'd imagine that unless sales are incredibly low due to an almost non existent supply of C41 colour film then there should be enough film sales to keep a lab going

Given the price of colour film, the seemingly long term problem of supply and the squeeze in disposal income that will be with us for at least all of this year and I suspect well into next year as well, I fear that the so-called colour film revival may well and truly have stopped

The above would seem to indicate a "perfect storm" is on its way or has already arrived

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jul 26, 2022

It sounds like there is a reasonable level of competition in that local market. A two person operation with debt issues is quite vulnerable in that sort of environment - labs need capital behind them to be successful.

Arcadia4 · Jul 26, 2022

I use Ag for C-41 and they've always been good, two of the key members of the team are ex Metro colour lab with many years experience. They have found backers to invest in the business (store and lab) in recent years. I did had some issues with B&W processing in the past and do it myself now. This list is reasonably uptodate if you want to find someone near you;

Where to Develop Film Anywhere in the UK in 2023.

Whether you’re in London, Scotland, Wales, or anywhere in between, we’ve found all of the best photo labs that still develop film all across the UK.

lenslurker.com

pentaxuser · Jul 26, 2022

MattKing said:
It sounds like there is a reasonable level of competition in that local market. A two person operation with debt issues is quite vulnerable in that sort of environment - labs need capital behind them to be successful.

I have no idea how much competition there is, Matt. Palm Labs certainly has a good reputation and unless my conditions I quoted apply as badly as my dismal outlook leads me to believe, perhaps wrongly, the key may lie in what Palms Labs needs to charge to be viable i.e. is it more expensive?

On checking the 2 Birmingham sites of Palm Labs and AgPhotographic and assuming that both are quoting for the bare minimum processing the prices are 35mm C41 £4.50 for Palm Labs and £3.99 for Ag

So for the very basic processing service the difference is 51p Hardly a large difference and one which disappears when postage is taken into account. Then Palm Labs is £7.50 and Ag is £7.93

So I doubt if competition is a factor in Palm Labs closing and the 2 man Palm Lab operation would not seem to be at a disadvantage

Does it have debt issues that is giving it solvency problems as you have stated? I don't know, do you know this?

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jul 26, 2022

The information about the level of local competition and debt is in the posts in this thread.
If there is more than one lab in the area, there is competition. And in a two person operation, there are a lot more elements of competition to deal with than just price.

koraks · Jul 27, 2022

pentaxuser said:
So I doubt if competition is a factor in Palm Labs closing

I don't doubt that at all, and your price list comparison has virtually no meaning in terms of trying to understand what's going on.

Let's say you get 4 quid revenue from developing a roll of c41, how much or that is EBIT? And EBITDA? Now figure how many rolls you're likely to be given to take care of a week in this "booming" market. I have a feeling that in a place like Birmingham, you should be happy if your lab gets to process 150 rolls a week. Alright, be generous, make it 250 (oh, if only!!) After all, out of the million or so population you're serving, how many shoot film, how many of those shoot color film, and how many of them bring it out for processing?
So you're two guys living off a camera business so your business needs to turn let's say 1000 quid a week profit at the very, very minimum just to eek out a marginal existence for our two boys that is only slightly better than a cardboard box under a bridge. In this scheme of things, film development is in the very best case scenario the icing on the cake, but not really the cake itself. What do you do if the lab nextdoor turns out to be just a little leaner, meaner, better known and basically just has the edge?

This market despite its phenomenal growth (which I'm not sure how phenomenal it is, but let's assume it is) is still a very tough place for a street corner lab to make a living in. And that implies that there's just not a lot of room for colleagues. Any competition will basically be cut throat. It's only the best, brightest and most fortunate who will survive for any period of time.

Ian Grant · Jul 27, 2022

There were around 15 labs processing E6 films in and around Birmingham in the late 1990s. Palm is the last of the professional labs in the area able to process sheet films, so when they shut it's the end of an era. Ag only process 35mm & 120 - E6, C41, or B&W.

Ian

DanCM · Jul 27, 2022

Hi all,

I’m a long time forum browser, but I thought I’d sign up and chip in on this one.

I’ve been using Palm for about 10 years now, but it’s been common knowledge around the Birmingham scene, that Ag have been doing their C41 for the last couple of years as they weren’t able to replace their machine when it broke down. I did take some work over to Ag when I heard, but I found I preferred Steve’s scanning so I continued to use Palm. It didn’t impact the service much, it maybe put 1-2 days on the turnaround, which isn’t a problem for me and the negatives always looked pretty good.

I might give Ag another try, but I’m tempted to give Analogue Wonderlab a go - I’m hearing very good things about them.

Dan

perkeleellinen · Jul 27, 2022

I got an email yesterday from Analogue Wonderlab about their new E6 service which is in partnership with Traia Photolab in London.

Ian Grant · Jul 27, 2022

DanCM said:
Hi all,

I’m a long time forum browser, but I thought I’d sign up and chip in on this one.

I’ve been using Palm for about 10 years now, but it’s been common knowledge around the Birmingham scene, that Ag have been doing their C41 for the last couple of years as they weren’t able to replace their machine when it broke down. I did take some work over to Ag when I heard, but I found I preferred Steve’s scanning so I continued to use Palm. It didn’t impact the service much, it maybe put 1-2 days on the turnaround, which isn’t a problem for me and the negatives always looked pretty good.

I might give Ag another try, but I’m tempted to give Analogue Wonderlab a go - I’m hearing very good things about them.

Dan

Welcome, Dan, long time no see

Ian

foc · Jul 27, 2022

It is always unfortunate when a lab has to close, especially when they have financial/solvency issues.

I don't mean to be unfair to the lab as I don't know them, but two things stood out to me from the previous few posts.

YoIaMoNwater said:
I know they had an issue getting their chemical supplies through back in January, they had to wait for at least 2 months for it to arrive

It doesn't sound very professional for a lab to run out of chemical supplies (a bit like a pub with no beer) Surely they could source supplies from other suppliers and besides it is good housekeeping to have at least 2 months' supply of chemistry in stock so they should have seen a shortage coming and been able to take action.

DanCM said:
Ag have been doing their C41 for the last couple of years as they weren’t able to replace their machine when it broke down.

No provision for investment in equipment/repairs is not a good sign and asking another lab to process on your behalf will help in the short term but in the long run, the margin is too tight with subcontracting to turn a profit.

Investment in second hand/reconditioned C41 processors, depending on the model, is not huge.

If film & digital image processing was their only business, then it could be a case of "all the eggs in the one basket."

YoIaMoNwater · Jul 27, 2022

foc said:
It doesn't sound very professional for a lab to run out of chemical supplies (a bit like a pub with no beer) Surely they could source supplies from other suppliers and besides it is good housekeeping to have at least 2 months' supply of chemistry in stock so they should have seen a shortage coming and been able to take action.

I found Palm Labs because they have a good record of E6 development and also one of the only labs that can process Aerochrome/EIR. Their chemical supplies problem is from the lack of available Fuji E6 chemistry, something completely out of their control. I assume that really crippled their financial aspects.

YoIaMoNwater · Jul 27, 2022

DanCM said:
Hi all,

I’m a long time forum browser, but I thought I’d sign up and chip in on this one.

I’ve been using Palm for about 10 years now, but it’s been common knowledge around the Birmingham scene, that Ag have been doing their C41 for the last couple of years as they weren’t able to replace their machine when it broke down. I did take some work over to Ag when I heard, but I found I preferred Steve’s scanning so I continued to use Palm. It didn’t impact the service much, it maybe put 1-2 days on the turnaround, which isn’t a problem for me and the negatives always looked pretty good.

I might give Ag another try, but I’m tempted to give Analogue Wonderlab a go - I’m hearing very good things about them.

Dan

I didn't know about that with their C41 machine. I only knew they also had a problem with the computers that they do orders with. I guess they were on the edges with all things against them. It's just a shame that they are closing down as Steve was very helpful when I first sent him a roll of color infrared film and later on hand rolled films. I guess it is really a change of era.

M-88 · Jul 27, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Given the price of colour film, the seemingly long term problem of supply and the squeeze in disposal income that will be with us for at least all of this year and I suspect well into next year as well, I fear that the so-called colour film revival may well and truly have stopped.

pentaxuser

Hi Pentaxuser, you have quite interesting points throughout the entire thread. While I live in a different country, I'm close to the owner of one of only three labs here. He says the biggest issue is supply/demand ratio and inability to acquire decent amounts of colour stock. His lab gets 200-300 colour rolls every 3-4 months.

Since film is a fad among modern youth, colour stock gets sold out pretty quickly. Sure, they come back for processing, but most of it is done within a month and then come 2-3 months of inactivity, because most people do BW processing at home and the lab is basically driven by colour. Right now orders have been placed for months ahead, so there's no way to add some more, to meed the demand.

So shortages in colour film supply is what kills it here in Georgia. The lab I'm talking about is offering various workshops and gear renting services to stay afloat, but the situation is dire.

Because of above mentioned, I gave up on colour and only shoot BW. Good thing Ilford looks alive.

Tom Kershaw · Jul 27, 2022

When I first started in photography I used a lab in Norwich called 'Reflections'. A few years later they closed up their city centre location , although by that time I had started to do all my own processing.

The owner apparently died suddenly in 2021 after moving abroad several years previously.

Businessman who 'changed the face' of photographic processing dies aged 68

The former owner of a Norwich photography business that changed the face of professional processing for more than 25 years has died suddenly at the…

www.edp24.co.uk

Ian Grant · Jul 27, 2022

On the Palm, Peter Gaffney (Metro), and Ag, front some things are best left unsaid, but Palm were kneecapped.

Ian

pentaxuser · Jul 27, 2022

Thanks for your reply, M-88. A shortage of colour film to the extent we have now is not something I have ever seen before and assuming it really is temporary i.e. will no longer be a problem in a few more months then and only then we may see if the very large increase in price in colour film which most believe is here to stay
will have a serious effect on sales

I think the price rises will seriously and adversely effect film sales but that I have to accept, remains to be seen. From my perspective I just see too many uncertainties in the coming period which may last several years for me to feel that we can be sure that film and colour film in particular, will continue to experience a true revival, assuming that even its revival so far is in fact significant in economic terms

What surprised me was a major lab in the U.K's second largest city which is competitive on price, announcing it was closing and it was this that prompted my post

It might just be that Palm Labs are poorly run from a business aspect and it is this rather than lack of demand for colour processing that has been its problem. I do not know nor do any of us really know the truth as it is not our lab but l feel uneasy to simply dismiss its closure as "just one of those things" that happen and feel that its closure does at least indicate there is uncertainty about the revival of colour film

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jul 27, 2022

pentaxuser said:
What surprised me was a major lab in the U.K's second largest city which is competitive on price, announcing it was closing and it was this that prompted my post

A 2 person lab is far from "major".
That being said, the loss of a resource for developing E6 sheet film is sad, even if the volume of E6 sheet film work is probably miniscule.

Tom Kershaw · Jul 27, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Thanks for your reply, M-88. A shortage of colour film to the extent we have now is not something I have ever seen before and assuming it really is temporary i.e. will no longer be a problem in a few more months then and only then we may see if the very large increase in price in colour film which most believe is here to stay
will have a serious effect on sales

As it happens I've just been looking at the Ag Photolab site, and see that there are good stocks of Portra in 120. It is 135 (35mm) film where the shortages seem to be.

pentaxuser · Jul 27, 2022

MattKing said:
A 2 person lab is far from "major".

Well it's major in terms of how many other labs there are covering the range that Palm Labs covered in the Birmingham area - quite a large city by U.K. standards, in fact the U.K.'s second city. If you were to ask any photographic forum in the U.K. with knowledge of what labs there are in Birmingham covering the processing that labs do then I am pretty sure Palm Labs would be high on the list but yes I agree, Matt, we are in danger of arguing about how many angels can sit on the point of a needle

The fact that it is 2 man is not relevant to the main thrust of my post. What I think is relevant is what concern we should have in the U.K. about the future of lab processing and colour film and what Palm Labs announcement of closing may have. I feel my post has relevance to the future of colour film but others may not think so

Frankly we have probably exhausted the discussion on the relevance or otherwise of Palm Labs to what its closing says or in the case of others' opinions, doesn't say about the future of colour film

The topic in terms of a lab demise in the U.K. has about as much interest to probably 99% of the membership here.

pentaxuser

pentaxuser · Jul 27, 2022

Maybe I am not the only one with a somewhat gloomy outlook. I have just received Tim Rudman's latest letter which is entitled "au revoir" Here's a section of it :

"Over the 'Covid years' the arrival of significant new products slowed to a trickle and stopped, as did progress on my new collaborative book & exhibition project. Now, with steeply rising energy costs, there are concerns over the future costs and even the viability of the silver gelatine papers we love. Energy input is a significant part of the manufacturing process and we have already witnessed retail supply shortages.

I suspect therefore that this newsletter could be the last, at least for the time being".

pentaxuser

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