Two Different Chromes.....

CMoore · Jan 10, 2020

I have several copies of the old Camera Magazine.
The back cover always has some sort of advertisement.

1. Agfa Chrome 50s

2. ORWO Chrom UT-18

Any of our members have experience with these two films.?

To be honest... #2... i am not sure i am spelling it correctly.
I have never heard of it before, and it is hard to reproduce the exact Nomenclature/Font that is used on the box of film that is in the ad.

Thank You

AgX · Jan 10, 2020

CMoore said:
I am not sure I am spelling it correctly. It is hard to reproduce the exact Nomenclature/Font that is used on the box of film that is in the ad.

Chrom is the german spelling. Chrome the english spelling.

In the early 60s Agfa (West) changed for the US market from Agfacolor U (reversal) to Agfachrome. Later they did so for all markets.
Orwo did similar, but chose the german spelling instead.

Kodak had introduced the designations -color for negative films and -chrome for reversal films.
Competitors adapted to this.
More or less... (eg. Agfa was not consequent on this.)

CMoore · Jan 10, 2020

AgX said:
Chrom is the german spelling. Chrome the english spelling.

In the early 60s Agfa (West) changed for the US market from Agfacolor U (reversal) to Agfachrome. Later they did so for all markets.
Orwo did similar, but chose the german spelling instead.

Kodak had introduced the designations -color for negative films and -chrome for reversal films.
Competitors adapted to this.
More or less... (eg. Agfa was not consequent on this.)

Do you know.....were those two films fairly popular in North America.?

AgX · Jan 10, 2020

Agfa even had a film plant in the USA, trading under Ansco. They lost that plant with WWII.

The later company, the merger of Gevaert and Agfa, became #2 in the western world, nevertheless had a hard stand in the homeland of Kodak.

DREW WILEY · Jan 21, 2020

My older brother shot a lot of Agfa 50 in 4x5; but I was still a kid shooting it in 35mm, along with Kodachrome 25. It was an extremely grainy, high-contrast film with poor green reproduction, but capable of picking up certain other hues no other film before or since could, including fluorescent algae and lichen hues. Pre-E6, so needed special Agfa processing. I later printed some of my brother's sheet film images onto Cibachrome. It could be a spectacular film if the right mix of colors was present.

CMoore · Jan 21, 2020

Wow. Very Interesting.!
Thank You for adding your Perspective/Experience.

My photo teacher was tossing out the last of her "Camera" magazines.....so i grabbed them. They all seem to be from the 1970's.
It was a small mag of about 50-60 pages, but they have fabulous articles and interviews of all kinds of photographers. Many of them were "famous" at the time and are World Renowned now.

The back of the mag had an advert on it. Several times it was for these two chromes that i had never seen before.

Thanks Again

foc · Jan 21, 2020

Agfachrome 50s was a transparency (slide) film and like the Agfachrome CT18 film, required the Agfa AP41 process. This was Agfa's own process and was different to Kodak E4 and E6 transparency processing.
While Agfachrome film were very popular in Europe, I think the fact that they were not Kodak process compatible, hindered their popularity in the USA.
I shot a lot of Agfa CT18 in the mid 1970's and I liked the colour.

Agfa change their transparency film, in the mid 1980's, to process AP44 which was compatible to Kodak E6 process.

The Orwo UT18 was film made in the GDR, also known as East Germany. After WW2 the Agfa plant was in the Soviet controlled area of Germany. This plant became Orwo in mid 1960's. Here is a history of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agfa-Gevaert and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORWO if you are interested.

Orwo UT18 was based on the original Agfa process but had changes made to it. Orwo never changed to compatible Kodak process.
In the 1970's & 80's Orwo slide films were popular in UK and Ireland due to their low price and they were sold as process paid. The photo magazines carried lots of advert for Orwo film.

DREW WILEY · Jan 21, 2020

Agfa 50 almost resembled Autochrome with its big separated colors of grain, but way more saturated and contrasty. I still have some 35mm and 4x5 shots in storage, but haven't looked at them in over 30 yrs, so don't know if there's been any fading or not.

CMoore · Jan 21, 2020

DREW WILEY said:
Agfa 50 almost resembled Autochrome with its big separated colors of grain, but way more saturated and contrasty. I still have some 35mm and 4x5 shots in storage, but haven't looked at them in over 30 yrs, so don't know if there's been any fading or not.

No time like the present.

I would be interested in seeing them.

AgX · Jan 22, 2020

foc said:
Agfachrome 50s was a transparency (slide) film and like the Agfachrome CT18 film, required the Agfa AP41 process. This was Agfa's own process and was different to Kodak E4 and E6 transparency processing.

AP41 (and similar processses) and E6 (and similar processes) were different as the films were basically different.

Until the late 70s Agfa adhered to the Agfacolor principle of bare embedded couplers. Kodak seeking an alternative for their complicated Kodachrome process and evading Agfa patents had to employ oil-embedded couplers, the Ektachrome principle. The different forms of dispersing and embedding necessitated different forms of couplers. And this needed a different processing chemistry.
(Here typically PE chimes in, saying that the Ektochrome principle is the better one...)

Agfachrome 50S was a film for professional, Agfachrome CT18 for amateur use.

AgX · Jan 22, 2020

DREW WILEY said:
Agfa 50 almost resembled Autochrome with its big separated colors of grain, but way more saturated and contrasty. I still have some 35mm and 4x5 shots in storage, but haven't looked at them in over 30 yrs, so don't know if there's been any fading or not.

Comparing Agfachrome to Autochrome is absurd.

guangong · Jan 22, 2020

I used to shoot a lot of Kodachrome and Agfachrome. For me, Kodachrome was more contrasty, with brighter colors and Agfachrome had a more pastel feeling and excelled for photographing brightly colored, high contrast subjects without making them look tacky. People seemed to have a more rounded, plastic depth than Kodachrome. Both were wonderful films, each with unique character.
If we are referring to “Camera” magazine from Switzerland, what a wonderful magazine. I still browse through my copies every now and then.

CMoore · Jan 22, 2020

guangong said:
I used to shoot a lot of Kodachrome and Agfachrome. For me, Kodachrome was more contrasty, with brighter colors and Agfachrome had a more pastel feeling and excelled for photographing brightly colored, high contrast subjects without making them look tacky. People seemed to have a more rounded, plastic depth than Kodachrome. Both were wonderful films, each with unique character.
If we are referring to “Camera” magazine from Switzerland, what a wonderful magazine. I still browse through my copies every now and then.

Yes..... that magazine.
I was able to grab about 40 of them before they went in the recycle bin.
I am surprised it was not bigger (more pages) and i am surprised i do not Hear/Read more mention of it.
It was fabulous.!

DREW WILEY · Jan 22, 2020

That "pastel" Agfachrome was a later E6 product line and NOT the older Agfa 50 in question, which was very high contrast, just like I already described. The look of the prints is highly "pointillistic" if significantly enlarged, almost like old high speed Scotchchrome, and indeed Autochrome in terms of spottish detail rendition (not hue repro), almost as if the dyes were side by side interspersed rather than overlapping. That's probably what allowed this film to pick up certain exotic hues that later chrome films couldn't. I've printed enough of it that I don't think I need to be lectured what it does or doesn't look like. You are probably confusing this with later Agfachromes which were quite similar to other E6 films of the era except for a softer less-saturated palette. The first Agfachrome 50 marketed here in the US had way more contrast than Kodachrome, and with grain that looked like buckshot compared to the Ektachrome 64 introduced around the same time.

mshchem · Jan 22, 2020

CMoore said:
Yes..... that magazine.
I was able to grab about 40 of them before they went in the recycle bin.
I am surprised it was not bigger (more pages) and i am surprised i do not Hear/Read more mention of it.
It was fabulous.!

Pure Gold, this stuff is so great. I tossed a bunch of stuff when I moved 7 years back, huge mistake. I bought some Darkroom magazines from the late 80's. The articles aren't that great, but the advertising is amazing. Full page ads for Nikon large format or enlarging lenses

CMoore · Jan 22, 2020

mshchem said:
Pure Gold, this stuff is so great. I tossed a bunch of stuff when I moved 7 years back, huge mistake. I bought some Darkroom magazines from the late 80's. The articles aren't that great, but the advertising is amazing. Full page ads for Nikon large format or enlarging lenses

Yeah, especially for somebody like me that is renewing my interest...but ALL of us i suppose; the ads are also a joy to See/Revisit. Not just the content of the ads, but the text.
You read the text and they are telling you what a great NEW Camera the Olympus OM1 is.!

foc · Jan 23, 2020

AgX said:
AP41 (and similar processses) and E6 (and similar processes) were different as the films were basically different.

Until the late 70s Agfa adhered to the Agfacolor principle of bare embedded couplers. Kodak seeking an alternative for their complicated Kodachrome process and evading Agfa patents had to employ oil-embedded couplers, the Ektachrome principle. The different forms of dispersing and embedding necessitated different forms of couplers. And this needed a different processing chemistry.
(Here typically PE chimes in, saying that the Ektochrome principle is the better one...)

Agfachrome 50S was a film for professional, Agfachrome CT18 for amateur use.

Yes that is what I said.

mohmad khatab · Jan 23, 2020

AgX said:
Agfa even had a film plant in the USA, trading under Ansco. They lost that plant with WWII.

The later company, the merger of Gevaert and Agfa, became #2 in the western world, nevertheless had a hard stand in the homeland of Kodak.

In the Middle East, Near East, and Arab world - Agfa was number one, not two, at the level of the average citizen)
The majority of cinematic work in Egypt (East Hollywood) was filmed on ORWO films.

mohmad khatab · Jan 23, 2020

DREW WILEY said:
Agfa 50 almost resembled Autochrome with its big separated colors of grain, but way more saturated and contrasty. I still have some 35mm and 4x5 shots in storage, but haven't looked at them in over 30 yrs, so don't know if there's been any fading or not.

I agree with you 100%.

AgX · Jan 23, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
In the Middle East, Near East, and Arab world - Agfa was number one, not two, at the level of the average citizen)
The majority of cinematic work in Egypt (East Hollywood) was filmed on ORWO films.

-) The more regulated markets were in the past the better the stand of the national manufacturers were. That is why competitors to Kodak had still substantial market shares in their home but also neighbouring countries. The same time that was the reason for Kodak to found plants in Europe.
Later their competors partially went abroad too.

-) After in East-Germany it was decided of finally solving the legal quarrel on the Agfa brand and on tradenames by giving up their original brand and install a new brand, Orwo, a marketing campaign was started never seen before originating in a socialist country.
Major aims of this campaign were developing countries. And of course there the big countries of movie production: Egypt and India. Which the same time where important trade partners for other products.

-) With Orwo colour films suffering increasing technical gap to their western counterparts (as result of a conservative industrial governmental policy) the price became the only way to sell these films.

mohmad khatab · Jan 23, 2020

AgX said:
-) The more regulated markets were in the past the better the stand of the national manufacturers were. That is why competitors to Kodak had still substantial market shares in their home but also neighbouring countries. The same time that was the reason for Kodak to found plants in Europe.
Later their competors partially went abroad too.

-) After in East-Germany it was decided of finally solving the legal quarrel on the Agfa brand and on tradenames by giving up their original brand and install a new brand, Orwo, a marketing campaign was started never seen before originating in a socialist country.
Major aims of this campaign were developing countries. And of course there the big countries of movie production: Egypt and India. Which the same time where important trade partners for other products.

-) With Orwo colour films suffering increasing technical gap to their western counterparts (as result of a conservative industrial governmental policy) the price became the only way to sell these films.

price was not the determining factor in the case.
The war and peace film produced by Moscow using OWRW technology was the reason why the Eastern photography system was loved by Middle Eastern audiences in general and German in particular.

AgX · Jan 23, 2020

You likely have seen far more Eastern-Block movies than we in the West.
Actually back then I practically saw none soviet movie at all... A matter of media politics.

CMoore · Jan 23, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
In the Middle East, Near East, and Arab world - Agfa was number one, not two, at the level of the average citizen)
The majority of cinematic work in Egypt (East Hollywood) was filmed on ORWO films.

Thank You
This type of "trivia" is interesting and informative.
I appreciate your Experience and Perspective.
Thanks Again

mohmad khatab · Jan 23, 2020

CMoore said:
Thank You
This type of "trivia" is interesting and informative.
I appreciate your Experience and Perspective.
Thanks Again

What do you mean when you say "trivia"
I guess this description is totally inappropriate.
I am talking about that period we consider (the golden age of the prosperity of visual culture in the Middle East region)
- This is an important period, ORWO contributed to the formation of the conscience and culture of several generations of Middle Eastern people.

mohmad khatab · Jan 23, 2020

AgX said:
You likely have seen far more Eastern-Block movies than we in the West.
Actually back then I practically saw none soviet movie at all... A matter of media politics.

East is east and west is west.
There was no Internet in those days, and films came through official channels within the framework of the cultural exchange protocol between countries through the cultural attaché of the two countries.
- And those Soviet, Chinese and Czech films were shown in cinemas on the sidelines of western films (before or after the American film) .. and it was almost for free.
The common relations between the people of the East were excellent, including the State of Iran (before the Islamic Revolution).

There are many wonderful Soviet films - if there was some fairness and fairness but one of them got Oscar.
Especially noteworthy (Moscow does not believe in tears)

Two Different Chromes.....

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