"Twirl stick" agitation tips wanted

[srs5694]

Hi,

I recently bought, along with another item, one of these developing tanks. In brief, this is a tank suitable for developing 120-format film. It uses a narrow spiral and a tank with a smaller-than-typical diameter, thus using just 260ml to develop a single roll of film. The trouble is, it can only use "twirl stick" agitation; there's no watertight lid, so inversion agitation won't work.

I got the tank the other day and today I managed to shoot a test roll to try out the tank. I twirled the stick a few times and moved the tank around on the table instead of inverting as I normally do. The trouble is that I got thin negatives with uneven development. The edges seem to have developed more than the center strip of the film, but there are multiple bands of development visible on many frames.

I've tried Googling on various keywords, and although I turn up discussions where similar symptoms are reported, I don't see any advice on how to avoid the problem, other than switching to inversion agitation. I can do that (I've got perfectly adequate 120/220 tanks and reels), but I'd like the option of using my new chemistry-saving tank, if possible.

So: What's your twirl-stick agitation method? Have you ever run into such problems as I've described and solved them?

Thanks for any tips.

 

[RobC]

if its got a hole in the top, then find something to fill the hole and use inversion. A rubber bung can't be that difficult to find.

 

[NormanV]

Throw it away and use a "proper" tank!

 

[fschifano]

The problem with using a rubber plug is that in addition to the center hole, there are usually drain holes or vents that also need plugging. These are not round in any tank I've ever seen. Scratch that idea.

Chucking the thing and using a proper tank is a bit rash at this point too. I use plastic tanks, albeit larger than yours and requiring nearly 600 ml. for a single 120 roll, and have evenly developed negatives every time. I never use inversion agitation with these tanks. The agitation stick method works.

Judging from the description of your technique, I'm pretty confident that you are agitating too gently. My method is to agitate continuously and vigorously for the first 30 seconds, followed by 5 seconds of vigorous agitation at each 1/2 minute interval thereafter until the cycle is complete. And when I say vigorous, I mean just that. Think of a top loading washing machine during the wash cycle. You cannot over do this as long as you are mindful of the rest periods between cycles. You need to insure that spent developer is removed from the film's surface and replaced with fresh. Pay no attention to the "gentle agitation" advocates. They speak as though you will somehow bruise the film with strong agitation. Nonsense! I've been doing this for more years than I care to remember, and have never damaged a roll of film with the practice.

 

[srs5694]

Thanks for your comments, fschifano. You're right that the holes would be difficult to plug, as the photos in the eBay auction suggest. I think it'd take Play-Doh to do the trick. I didn't make clear in my description that I agitated (twirled the stick) continuously for 30 seconds, then for about 7 seconds of each 30 thereafter. (I'm used to inverting for 5 seconds of each 30 after the initial 30 of agitation, but I do about four inversions in five seconds but somehow each twirl took longer than my inversions, so I ended up with slightly longer twirl agitations.) I'll try spinning the stick more vigorously next time. I was also thinking of doing some rocking of the tank -- obviously not full inversions, but maybe I can lift the sides enough to get some up and down motion without sloshing much out the drain hole. Or maybe I can move the reel up and down slightly, although I think there are only a few millimeters of leeway for that.

Basically I think my problem is that I'm re-learning film development with this tank, so I'm running into newbie problems. I've seen enough posts on the issue of inversion vs. twirling to know that twirling can work, but based on Internet posts I've seen, people who run into these problems usually solve them by moving to inversion agitation.

 

[bdial]

Try turning it back and forth, rather than in only one direction, the motion doesn't need to be vigorous.

 

[bill spears]

I normally use the Paterson tanks with the inversion method. After years of doing it this way with hardly any problems whatsoever I once decided it would be fun to try the twirl stick - NEVER AGAIN !! - I got really bad streaking on what was possibly one of my best images. I was quite vigorous with the agitation in both directions.
Like someone else said, chuck it and get a proper tank, or use it as a plant pot or something !
Chemistry is relatively cheap and its not worh the risk for the sake of saving a few pence.

 

[MattKing]

Try sliding the tank on your work surface as well, in a vigorous but random figure 8 type pattern.

Matt

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

Matt's suggestion is a good one, as anything which adds an agitation pattern different from simple twirling will help. Even inversion itself can be too simple or repetitive an agitation pattern. I remember when I started developing, thinking that inversion should also include some kind of twisting, so that the agitation is varied, and then years later read Ansel Adams advocating just that (I think he called it a "toroidal action"). There really does need to be the addition of that "random" factor.

 

[Martin Aislabie]

Hi,

I twirled the stick a few times and moved the tank around on the table instead of inverting as I normally do. The trouble is that I got thin negatives with uneven development. The edges seem to have developed more than the center strip of the film, but there are multiple bands of development visible on many frames.


So: What's your twirl-stick agitation method? Have you ever run into such problems as I've described and solved them?

Thanks for any tips.

What you are describing is a lack of agitation of the developer :confused:

"Twirling the stick a few times" was clearly not enough

With no film loaded on the reel and without the tank cap, fill the tank with the correct volume of and try twirling the stick while watching the flow patterns within the tank

You are looking to move the film relative to the water and to create some turbulence.

Water/dev has inertia - so a flick on the stick is good and then as the water starts moving bring the stick to a vigorous halt - to create turbulence in the dev - and then flick back to the original starting position - to keep you wrist in a comfortable position

I move the stick about 1/3rd of a turn each time – that’s about as far as it is comfortable for me to move my wrist – for you it will be different

I twirl back and forth 15 times every minute and it takes about 12 sec

I also agitate for the first 20sec after pouring in the dev – then pick up the tank and slam it down fairly hard – to displace those last few air bubbles

If you get sufficient turbulence in the dev with the stick then moving the tank in what ever pattern takes your fancy is not required – unless you want to and are prepared to do it consistently every time – think about it – it will get pretty boring very soon – but its up to you

The twirling is needed to get SOME movement of film/dev – too much will not improve matters and might just create air bubbles which might stick to the film surface

Good luck

Martin

 

[Bob F.]

Paterson tanks include a "twiddle stick" but it is only intended for the initial 5 second agitation to help dislodge air bubbles. After that, the lid is put on and inversion agitation is used. I'm pretty sure Paterson do not suggest using it for general agitation - certainly not in the System 4 instruction sheet.

Think about how much turbulence inverting the tank 5 or 6 times creates and then think how you can generate that level of turbulence just with a twiddle-stick. Not easy. If you must, try rotating the stick rapidly for two rotations of the reel, back and forth, for 5 seconds every 30 seconds and use the figure-of-eight motion suggested above. Don't be gentle: rapid movement will help mix things up.

But frankly, as with others, I suggest using that tank as a flower pot and get a Paterson System 4 tank, or a Jobo one that can be inverted.

Good luck, Bob.

 

[sun of sand]

I have a Leica twirl tank that's built really well
May be neat to do some tests comparing it to similar tanks

but nobody wants to do that.

Get yourself some JB Bond and fill in all the drain holes and make a cork stopper or something for the center hole.

 

[fschifano]

I have a Leica twirl tank that's built really well
May be neat to do some tests comparing it to similar tanks

but nobody wants to do that.

Get yourself some JB Bond and fill in all the drain holes and make a cork stopper or something for the center hole.

You do that, then tell me how easy it will be to fill and drain the tank. The air in the tank has to go somewhere when you pour in the liquid. It also has to get back into the tank when you drain it. Tell you what. Fill a narrow mouth bottle with water, then invert it. What happens?

 

[Frank Szabo]

I remembered my uncle using the twirly stick when he processed and tried it myself to my disappointment. The stick went in the trash and the lid was used with inversion. No problems since.

 

[randerson07]

I had been using the twirl stick on my generic tank from Freestyle until I read this thread. I didnt know the lid was liquid tight. This morning I only used the stick for the first 30 seconds, then slapped the lid on, much easier.

Im not sure if it has anything to do with my negs looking better, or if I just did a better job shooting but Im going to stick with inversions rather than the stick.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Another vote for the Patterson tank.

But how about chucking the twirl stick and putting a black rubber stopper in the hole and then inverting? Looks like a #5 or #6 stopper might do it.

 

[bobwysiwyg]

For what it's worth, I've used Paterson tanks for years also (35mm mostly). I don't use the stick or invert, but holding by the rim of the lid, after making sure it's tight of course , agitate by "tilting" it at approx. 45 degrees and rotating in circular motions, first clock-wise then counter-clockwise. So far, never had any problems with uneven development. Keeps the wrists limber as well.

 

[Lee L]

The plastic AP tank, made in Spain, marked Made in EC on the bottom of my sample, has a sinusoidal wave pattern built into the "twirl stick" mechanism, so that the reels are pumped up and down a bit as you spin the stick. I haven't used it enough to note any poor agitation from this method, and the lid is also tight enough for inversion IIRC.

Lee

 

[srs5694]

I've now shot and developed two more rolls in this tank. Thanks to fschifano's and Martin Aislabie's suggestions, I've gotten fine results from both. I simply agitated more vigorously, including roughly 6-8 back-and-forth motions of about 1/3 turn for each 5-second agitation period per 30 seconds (plus the initial 30-second agitation period). I also tossed in a couple of up-and-down motions of the stick -- there are only a few millimeters of vertical motion possible, but I decided to try it. One of my rolls was conventional B&W (Fomapan 400 in DS-10) and the other was C-41. I've scanned the B&W roll and it's fine. I'm currently scanning the color roll and so far it seems fine, too. So thanks to those who offered positive suggestions.

I realize this thread is drifting from my specific situation to a general agitation technique debate, but note that I have a specific reason for using this tank: It requires just 260ml of solution to process a 120-format roll. Paterson, AP, and other manual plastic tanks take about 500ml for the same task, and my stainless steel tank requires 400ml. This isn't a big deal for most B&W developers, but for color the difference can get pricey. (Yes, I know there are other ways to economize on developer use, but it was convenient and cheap for me to try this tank, so I did.)

I think my experience demonstrates that there's more than one way to peel this particular potato, as it were. I hope that those who bad-mouthed the idea of twirl agitation will keep this in mind in the future: It can be done; it just requires its own particular variety of attention to detail. The same is true of inversion agitation -- lots of people get surge marks and have other problems with it when they begin. FWIW, I plan to continue using inversion agitation in my stainless steel tanks with my 35mm rolls, but for 120 I'll use my new tank with twirl agitation.

 

[NormanV]

I'm sorry if I seemed a bit dismissive by my comment to just throw it away but it was based on more than forty years experience. it is just not worth the time and waste of materials to go against a well proved technique. Inversion agitation is well proved and effective. If lack of money to buy another tank is a problem then that is another matter, but the cost of materials involved in experimentation would soon pay for the purchase of an "inversion tank". Ilford recommend inversion agitation and I am sure that they know more about it than most people.