Turner Reich Triple Convertible

Ian Grant · Jul 27, 2009

I have a chance to buy one at a good price, but are they any good.

Back in the UK I do have a Gundlach 12" Radar and it's a bit of a dog but that's mainly due to the Betax shutter, and my Dagor is lighter and sharper

This ones in a Regno. Front element 24" rear 18", unsure what the combination is.

Ian

JBrunner · Jul 27, 2009

Hi Ian. I have one (28,21,12). Put together they perform well, keeping in mind the vintage and coatings (or rather lack thereof) When using one cell or the other sharpness drops unless you use a filter as the individual cells don't seem to be corrected for chromatic aberration. I'm always shooting B&W with a yellow or more filter, so it doesn't bug me.

Ian Grant · Jul 27, 2009

That's kind of what I guessed Jason, perhaps I should try my Dagor split first

I'm not generally in favour of split lenses, I have a 240mm Symmar somewhere that splits but it's single cells are only really usable stopped down well, I've never met anyone who actually uses early Symmars split.

But then the Turner Reich is cheap, I don't know, maybe I should save up for an XVa when Cooke design & release the 5x4 version

Ian

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 27, 2009

I have a 12-19-25 TR Triple Convertible. It is quite acceptable, but it is very prone to flare/ghosting in the fully assembled position if you have a light-source within the image. They have wicked coverage circles though, so if you have to use movements, in that regard they're quite the blessing in disguise. I've used mine converted on my 5x12 and with the 19" cell installed, I can push my Canham to the limits of movement and not run out of circle.

Ian Grant · Jul 27, 2009

Thanks you've made my mind up. I work in conditions where flare is a major problem, so it appears a "Turner Reich Triple Convertible" is a no go. My late 30's Dagor was factory coated (after WWII) and doesn't flare.

A few months ago I shot with a coated CJZ 50's 150mm Tessar and had no flare, but a modern zoom on my D***** flared badly, I often have a light source within the image, I've had to stop using my pre-War 135mm Tessar because of internal flare.

So very useful information, many thanks.

Ian

tessar · Jul 27, 2009

I don't know -- Walker Evans used a TR Triple Convertible (often with one or two elements removed) for his 8x10 FSA photographs in the '30s. He was shooting in Alabama in the summer, often at high noon (developing at night under a blanket in his hotel room). I just wish I could get results like that up here in the Great White North. If I could find this lens in good shape for a reasonable price I'd certainly go for it.

Jarvman · Jul 27, 2009

While we're on the subject of these lenses! I've had a few odd marks on my negs which I couldn't attribute to anything other than a light-leak or flare and I'm pretty certain the bellows are in good condition, seeing as in more subdued lighting conditions haven't caused any problems. Then again, one shot I pointed directly at the sun peering through clouds came out fine. This was taken with a turner reich triple convertible 12-21-28 Underexposed too, which is fault of my own

RJS · Jul 27, 2009

I had a 12 - 21 - 28 and it made some very nice images - not the contrast and sharpity one gets with modern lenses, but I wish I still had it. I got rid of it at a time when I thought sharp and contrast were the be-all and end all. Oh well

JBrunner · Jul 27, 2009

tessar said:
I don't know -- Walker Evans used a TR Triple Convertible (often with one or two elements removed) for his 8x10 FSA photographs in the '30s. He was shooting in Alabama in the summer, often at high noon (developing at night under a blanket in his hotel room). I just wish I could get results like that up here in the Great White North. If I could find this lens in good shape for a reasonable price I'd certainly go for it.

Curious what kind of sharpness he got with two elements removed.

John Kasaian · Jul 28, 2009

FWIW a big issue with T-R is balsam seperation around the edges---it's quite common on the examples I've seen. Stopping down takes care of the problem of course and T-Rs generally go for nice prices, however I'd opt for a Wollensak 1a if I were going to go the triple convertable route.
IIRC, Ansel Adams "Golden Gate" was shot with a TR triple convertable.

pgomena · Jul 28, 2009

I had a Wollensak Raptar 1a triple convertible (13",20", 25") and found it to perform very well at 13 and 20". I did use a #12 yellow filter whenever I used the 20" conversion. 8x10" contact prints looked very good. The 25" negs were a bit soft the few times I tried that focal length, but I can't say whether it was the lens or the fact that my old Korona was pretty wobbly at full extension. I did not often use it in high-flare situations when converted, however. I liked the lens very much and found the 20" conversion to be my favorite focal length for many landscape situations. No balsam separation on my particular lens, which probably was from the late 40s-early 50s, but the front element did have a tiny bit of haze that did not seem to impede performance. I can't say anything about a Turner-Reich. The only examples I have encountered were pretty badly beaten, and I've never used one.

Peter Gomena

John Koehrer · Jul 28, 2009

In addition to Evans, Edward Weston also used a 12-21-28 TR in his day. It was after Mexico & early in his relationship with Charis Wilson. He merely did OK with it.

jonw · Jul 30, 2009

John Kasaian said:
FWIW a big issue with T-R is balsam seperation around the edges---it's quite common on the examples I've seen. Stopping down takes care of the problem of course and T-Rs generally go for nice prices, however I'd opt for a Wollensak 1a if I were going to go the triple convertable route.
IIRC, Ansel Adams "Golden Gate" was shot with a TR triple convertable.

John, do you know of an easy way to take these T-R lens apart to correct the balsam separation? I have a TR triple convertible with both cells needing the work. I discussed it once with Jim Galli, but he was not aware of how to get them apart...at least at that time.

If anyone has any reasonable suggestions, I would welcome them. Thanks.

Jon

david_mizen · Jul 31, 2009

a google search suggests a book called camera repair and maintenance by tomosy he says balsam has a melting point of 150 celsius(? farenheit) he suggest building a little oven and using a hair dryer to heat the elements up (i think ive also heard people boiling the elements theres a posting on WWW.kyphoto (google will find the rest) once separated the residue is then dissolved with acetone

Ian Grant · Jul 31, 2009

Tomosy's book is very good and covers Thornton Pickard and Graflex SLR/Speed Graphic shutter repairs in the Google preview section

Ian

John Koehrer · Jul 31, 2009

You can separate the elements just by letting them soak in acetone, it's not quick at overnight but it is safe for the glass.

JBrunner · Jul 31, 2009

John Koehrer said:
You can separate the elements just by letting them soak in acetone, it's not quick at overnight but it is safe for the glass.

And what does one glue them back together with? Will marker survive the acetone treatment? (labeled on the edge to keep the cells in order?)

Barry S · Jul 31, 2009

Elements can be cemented together with a UV-curing optical cement.

http://www.optical-cement.com/cements/products.html

http://www.skgrimes.com/popsci/index.htm

Alan Davenport · Jul 31, 2009

Interesting observation; From Edward Weston's Day Books he wrote that he actually went to an eye doctor because he was having trouble focusing his T-R. He discovered that his eyes were ok but the T-R was bad.

Alan

Ian Grant · Jul 31, 2009

I said no to the Turner Reich, a couple of days ago. I think I had good reliable feedback from APUG members Thanks

Ian

jonw · Jul 31, 2009

John Koehrer said:
You can separate the elements just by letting them soak in acetone, it's not quick at overnight but it is safe for the glass.

This might work with cells which you can remove from the barrel, but on TR cells, Gundlach appears to have crimped a metal band so that the cells can not be easily removed. Thus, I don't think they can be soaked in acetone and subsequently recemmented.

The possibility of using the small oven with the hairdryer might work with a TR cell. Has anyone tried this approach given how the Gundlach TR cells are constructed with metal bands?

Thanks. Jon

John Kasaian · Aug 1, 2009

jonw said:
John, do you know of an easy way to take these T-R lens apart to correct the balsam separation? I have a TR triple convertible with both cells needing the work. I discussed it once with Jim Galli, but he was not aware of how to get them apart...at least at that time.

If anyone has any reasonable suggestions, I would welcome them. Thanks.

Jon

Sorry Jon, I have no idea how to go about this. You could send it to Grimes, but I'd hate to think of the cost. IMHO, stopping down appears to be the best bet.

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