Tungsten Slide Films

frobozz · Dec 16, 2010

A closer read of those articles tells how they convinced Technicolor to process the stuff: they were shooting it in a 250 exposure back on their Nikon camera. So that results in about 33 feet of film. Still pretty negligible by movie film processing standards, but at least it's a lot more than 5 feet! I've got a couple of FN-100 backs for my F-1N's (about 15 feet) and I even have an original F-1 and a 250 back for it, so if I have to go that route to make processing easier, I can do so. Still hoping cinelab can do it for us though.

Duncan

holmburgers · Dec 16, 2010

Perhaps it would take a pooling of orders for them to agree to it. Like, let's say we send them x amount of rolls at once, or wait till they accumulate.

B&Wpositive · Dec 16, 2010

holmburgers said:
Perhaps it would take a pooling of orders for them to agree to it. Like, let's say we send them x amount of rolls at once, or wait till they accumulate.

The guy I spoke with back a while ago mentioned something about staples versus a special splicing tape I think. Not sure if it was staples versus tape, but the point is he said that they had some of the better splicing stuff at their New York location or something, and he would try to get that.

frobozz · Dec 24, 2010

Just a note to the folks I sent film to: I rolled them as "generous 36 exposures" since by using a bulk loader in the daylight, the spool end also gets lightstruck. So shoot 36 exposures and they'll all be good, but don't run the roll until the film physically stops at 38 or 39 or whatever, because you're likely to lose the last image or two.

Duncan

michaelbsc · Dec 27, 2010

Let me ask what may be a stupid question.

Wasn't one of the complaints about the "new digital" RA4 paper that it was too high contrast, and isn't one of the complaints about ECN-II film that it's too low contrast?

If both of those are correct, assuming I'm not suffering from a senior moment, how do the two fit together? Well? Or do they miss the mark?

holmburgers · Dec 28, 2010

Duncan,

Got the rolls and one is in my camera as we speak. Thanks a lot, can't wait to see the results.

Michaelbsc, that's a very interesting/promising proposition indeed.

2F/2F · Dec 28, 2010

michaelbsc said:
Let me ask what may be a stupid question.

Wasn't one of the complaints about the "new digital" RA4 paper that it was too high contrast, and isn't one of the complaints about ECN-II film that it's too low contrast?

If both of those are correct, assuming I'm not suffering from a senior moment, how do the two fit together? Well? Or do they miss the mark?

Might be promising. There are also things you can do to the RA-4 developer to increase contrast, so between the two of them, one might be able to get decent optical prints from MP negative film. I am not sure what the orange mask situation on MP film is, though. I have shot some 500T, but it was always scanned, not printed.

holmburgers · Dec 29, 2010

If there's no orange mask, perhaps some orange filters could be made from unexposed but processed negative film. As far as I know, it's just a constant orange dye with equal density throughout the neg.

Another advantage of MP film is that you could make slides from your negs by shooting the negs macro. I've always wanted to do this, but the orange mask poses a PITA.

Side note... why does motion picture film use 250 and 500 speed designations? I'm curious why their conventions would be different than still film.

cmacd123 · Jan 3, 2011

Always amazed when I see a fresh discussion of Movie Film. I am almost tempted to do an FAQ on my web space.

1) 35mm Movie film comes with Bell and Howell perfs, BH1866 vs KS 1370 for "normal film" Not a big deal for still cameras. A bit of a problem if using still Film in a movie camera.

2) All this film uses Process ECN-II - All of the curent film has a "REM-JET" back which will destroy c-41 Chemistry. (black gunk everywhere) So it eaither has to be done at home or by a movie lab.

3) all has a orange mask, and can be printed on colour paper. All has lower contrast than still film.

4 Most movie labs don't have a still splicer. They can get away with overlapping 6 inches of film at each end. Only a few folks have he sort of splicer that a still lab uses (heat seal paper) since the processers often run at 100FT/ Minute or better, they need a good splice.

5) to get slides it must be printed on 2383 or the equivalent product from Agfa or Fuji. The movie printers can't change filtration fast enough to allow for anything other than all 5 feet being printed at one flter seting (called Timing for historic reasons in the movie biz)

6 ECN negative has always had fairly good stability, the print stock used to be iffy as the major customers destroy prints after 6 months.

Photo Engineer · Jan 3, 2011

holmburgers said:
If there's no orange mask, perhaps some orange filters could be made from unexposed but processed negative film. As far as I know, it's just a constant orange dye with equal density throughout the neg.

Another advantage of MP film is that you could make slides from your negs by shooting the negs macro. I've always wanted to do this, but the orange mask poses a PITA.

Side note... why does motion picture film use 250 and 500 speed designations? I'm curious why their conventions would be different than still film.

Interesting misconceptions here. Sorry.

The orange color is a mask is NOT a constant orange dye. It is a POSITIVE orange image superimposed over the NEGATIVE original negative color image, and which has the ability to perform contrast and color masking at the same time.

PE

cmacd123 · Jan 4, 2011

holmburgers said:
Side note... why does motion picture film use 250 and 500 speed designations? I'm curious why their conventions would be different than still film.

Probaly a case of Oneupmanship. Kodak and Fuji have been going head to head on Camera Negative film for years. The early ECN was in the 50 range. Then they went to 100. Then 320, Then 500. They are just dropping the 100 as they say that the 200T Vision 3 is better then the 100T Vision 2.

I actually prefer the 50D as it is about the right speed when you consider a 120 degree shutter ta 24FPS>

Use http://www.Kodak.com/go/motion and click on "camera films" under products.

Looks like we are left with

Vision 2 50D (5201 7201)
Vision 3 200T (5213 7213
Vision 3 250D (5207 7207)
Vision 2 500T (5250 7260)
Vision 2 EXPRESSION 500T (Soft colour) 5229 7229
Vision 3 500T 5219 7219

Type starting with 5 are 35mm and Above 7 is 16mm and below
although only Vision 3 200t and 500T are in Super 8.

Tim Gray · Jan 4, 2011

cmacd123 said:
Probaly a case of Oneupmanship. Kodak and Fuji have been going head to head on Camera Negative film for years. The early ECN was in the 50 range. Then they went to 100. Then 320, Then 500. They are just dropping the 100 as they say that the 200T Vision 3 is better then the 100T Vision 2.

I think that's a bit too strong. Sure they were driven by competition, but in my limited experience, the difference between 200T and 500T is pretty big. In 16mm, the grain at 500 can be kind of large while the 200T is a lot more palatable. Kodak used to have Vision 800T but I guess they discontinued it and recommend 500T over it. I guess the tradeoffs to get 800 speed weren't worth it (kind of like many people are ok with ISO 400, but find the '3200' speed films are too grainy).

At the same time, 500T lets you light smallish scenes with a couple of 300W lights. We just shot some Vision3 200T (first time for me) and we needed to bring out the 1k lights with the same camera kit. I'd much rather use the 300W lights: cheaper, easier to move around, etc. Just my opinion.

Just look at the number of movies that use V3 500T. It's definitely a popular stock. Of course, if you already know this, then you already know this

cmacd123 · Jan 5, 2011

Tim Gray said:
I think that's a bit too strong. Sure they were driven by competition, but in my limited experience, the difference between 200T and 500T is pretty big.
At the same time, 500T lets you light smallish scenes with a couple of 300W lights.
Just look at the number of movies that use V3 500T. It's definitely a popular stock. Of course, if you already know this, then you already know this

Sorry, what I throught I was saying is that it strated as one upmanship to got from 320 all the way to 500, while still film seems to top out at 400.

I have shot some fun home movies with the 500T stocks using just the normal household lights. I don't know if the timer had to crank the lights over to the stops to make up for the lower colour temperature of 60W household bulbs. MY home movie modus operandi is to shoot short ends of 16mm in my Filmo, and have the lab make me a "best light" workprint on 3383. I have collected a bunch of Spools and a split reel so I can repack random lengths of film on 100 ft spools. The lab will return the empty spools if you ask to get them back..

Tim Gray · Jan 5, 2011

Ahh ok. I got you.

I wish 16mm were cheaper - haha. Actually I wish transfers were cheaper. I'm sure the timer adjusted it some. Honestly, I haven't had that much trouble shooting unfiltered daylight still film in household tungsten lighting and correcting digitally. Shooting 500T with a slightly lower color temp shouldn't be a problem at all.

Where do you get your film processed?

cmacd123 · Jan 6, 2011

Tim Gray said:
Ahh ok. I got you.

Where do you get your film processed?

NCL in Toronto for the Eastman colour.
http://www.niagaracustomlab.com/

BlackandWhite film factory for B&W.
http://www.blackandwhitefilmfactory.com/

holmburgers · Jan 10, 2011

Interesting discussion guys; it's great to hear from some movie film shooters.

I'm excited to get my rolls processed, I'm nearly done with my first roll of 500T. Walking into a restaurant, or a bar in the evening, or a friend's house, nothing could be better than 500 speed and tungsten; I feel like for the first time I have the appropriate stock for such occasions.

imokruok · Jan 10, 2011

Tim Gray said:
Ahh ok. I got you.

I wish 16mm were cheaper - haha. Actually I wish transfers were cheaper.

Yeah, the transfers are killer for me. That's the one part of the chain that, in my opinion, keeps a lot of new entrants, high-level hobbyists, etc. out of the picture.

hpulley · Jan 10, 2011

I still see some RTP-II 135-36 Fujichrome 64T Professional Tungsten Color Slide (Transparency) Film (ISO-64) in stock at B&H.

photoncatcher · Jan 10, 2011

If all else fails, you could use daylight film, and filter.

holmburgers · Jan 10, 2011

This thread title should probably be changed to "Movie Film - fast tungsten, use in still cameras, ECN-II processing, etc." or something along those lines.

cmacd123 · Jan 11, 2011

photoncatcher said:
If all else fails, you could use daylight film, and filter.

Bad move.. the filter factor going that way is HUGE, and most places with Tungsten light are not as Brite as Daylight. The Movie lads use allmost exclusivly tungsten films, and are never far from their Trusty 85 Filter.

holmburgers · Jan 12, 2011

I agree. That's the whole point here, high speed and tungsten; something that is inachievable with any color film, save perhaps for Press 1600 and a filter, which would be rubbish anyways.

I frankly don't understand why there are fast daylight films.... I mean, if it's daylight you don't need that speed! 400 on up should be tungsten, eh? Viva la película cinematográfica!

hpulley · Jan 12, 2011

Try photographing birds with a long telephoto lens and fast shutter speeds. 3200 seems slow...

holmburgers · Jan 12, 2011

Touché!

frobozz · Jan 21, 2011

frobozz said:
I got 100 ft of Vision3 500T spooled off the bigger roll and onto a core for my bulk loader. My *(&(*&%%^& rewind post broke as I was putting the split reel on, so I had to do it by hand. Lots of fun in the dark! I just need to find a few spare minutes to spool some down into 36-exposure carts now. And go shoot some pictures! I did grab a sturdier set of rewinds on ebay for when I spool down the 250D.

If a few of you want a couple of rolls of the 500T to try, I'd be happy to send them to you free of charge. (I was hoping to offer the 250D at the same time but I can't do that until the rewinds get here.) PM me your address and I'll mail them out. I'll post back here if a crazy number of people have taken me up on it, to stop the offer, but assuming it's just a few people that plan to follow through with this and shoot it and get cinelab to process it, no problem.

Duncan

I've got new rewinds, and I only sent out rolls to a couple of people before, so I'll make the offer once again: a couple of rolls free to people that will actually shoot them and send them to cinelab. (They are still willing to do this; pricing and other details yet to be nailed down...) I admit, I haven't shot mine yet, but any day now! I can offer Vision3 500T (5219) or some Vision2 250D (5205).

Duncan

Tungsten Slide Films

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