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Trying to get my head round film recorders...

Bruce Robbins

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I was going to have some digital files recorded onto FP4 to see what the quality would be like when enlarged in the darkroom. What I can't understand, though, is how the recorder's resolution works.

The files would be recorded at 4K. I think the actual resolution is 2732 x 4096. How do you work out what size of enlargement is possible from this resolution? What is the limiting factor? It's also possible to have digital files recorded onto 120 FP4 at 3072 x 4096 resolution. Again, I'm flummoxed. Does the medium format advantage still apply when it comes to enlargements or, since max resolution seems to be the same, is there no longer any benefit from the larger film size? Hopefully this will be straightforward to someone because it's complete bollocks to me!

If anyone's tried this route before at similar resolutions, I'd be very interested in your opinions of the output quality.

Bruce
 

Tom Kershaw

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Bruce,

I've not worked with film recorders, but from a theoretical point of view, 2732 x 4096 is very low resolution, even 3072 x 4096 isn't that high. The increased film size should however result in fewer grain related issues. As a comparison, scanning a 6x7 medium format negative (assuming 56mm x 70mm frame size) @ 4000 DPI:

56 millimeters = 2.20472441 inch (2.2 inch)

70 millimeters = 2.75590551 inch (2.76 inch)

2.2" x 4000 = 8800 pixels

2.76" x 4000 = 11040 pixels



Tom
 

L Gebhardt

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I have not used this class of film recorders. The one you are looking at probably uses a CRT image focused onto the film with lenses. The CRT is like a computer monitor (but small and much higher res), and can only display a fixed number of pixels. These are then focused onto the film. So there is an upper limit imposed by the CRT on resolution. The advantage of the larger film in this case would be lower grain. And you may see a bit more usable resolution.

Also, the CRTs have some issues with blooming in the highlights, from what I hear. You may want to have the image written out several times as a test. For one version try decreasing the max brightness from 255 down to maybe 240. That should in theory cut down on the blooming, and just require a bit more development to bring it all back.

A good rule of thumb for resolution is you want at least a certain level of pixels per inch (ppi) for the image to appear reasonably sharp. This number varies by output technology and individual preference. 200ppi seems to be a general level many people consider the minimum, but with you testing it yourself I can't say for sure what you will like with this output path.

The math is simple though. If you image out at 4096 on the long side simply take that film and make ever increasing enlargements. At 10 inches on the long side you will be at about 410ppi (4096pixels/10inches). So a 20" enlargement will be at 205ppi. I imaging some where between these will be your limit, so maybe 11x14. But that's just a guess and you will need to test to be sure.

The other option in film recorders is to use one that doesn't have a fixed image size, but rather writes out to the film at a certain resolution using lasers (or maybe an other tech for the LVTs - i'm not sure). The two big names you will hear are LVT and Lightjet. I am only familiar with the lightjet, so that is waht I will explain. These can image on sheet film from 5x7 upto 11x14. They have resolutions that are usually referred to as res 80, or res 40. That is, 80pp/mm with equates to 2032ppi. So if you write out a 4x5 image (onto larger film) it could address an image that is 8128 x 10160 pixels, or 82 megapixels. They can also go larger.

If your images come from a 6 or 8MP camera, you may not see much resolution difference between the two technologies. However if you are scanning large or medium format film you will get much more of your scan onto the output film. The LVT or Lightjets do give higher quality than the CRTs from everything I have read.
 
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Bruce Robbins

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The film recorder I have in mind does indeed use lasers to burn the image onto film. In fact, it's this one here

I have no problem understanding resolution as it applies to digital files and inket printers but it's knowing when a digital image burned onto film is likely to start breaking up that has me confused. I can see the logic in that point being somewhere between 10-20 inches on the long side.
 

L Gebhardt

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If you read the specs pdf for the PCR 4 you will see it is using a 7" CRT. Sounds like they may have the flare issue under control, and it is intended for photo output (not presentation slides like many) so it may be very good within it's stated capabilities.
 
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Bruce Robbins

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I should have noticed the bit about the CRT. The problem is the spec above is at odds with what the company that would be doing the film recording claims. They seem to think the recorder uses "a precise set of lasers (three pass)". This outfit can be found here.

It's probably safer to go with the manufacturer's own spec ;-)
 

L Gebhardt

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Well their price is very good. It's probably worth it to give them a try. I'm at least curious, so if you do the experiment let us know the results. If they will do it, I would also have the same images output on 120 to compare.
 
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Bruce Robbins

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Mr Gebhardt, I contacted the German company that makes the film recorder and they suggest that the PCR4 recorder, which records at 4k, should be good for up to 30x40cm depending on the quality of the digital file. They suggest that their PCR8 recorder (8K) and the medium format camera module would give excellent results above that size. They added, "The PCR film recorder delivers the exact output of the data which has been sent to it."

I've been invited to send a couple of files to test the output so I'll probably do that first.