Trying to figure out Pyrocat times.

waynecrider · Jun 6, 2005

What is the effect on developing times in general as film is increasingly overexposed and 2nd, as the solution is changed to using a higher concentration of "B'' stock? say 1:1:100 vs 1:1.5:100 vs 1:2:100.
I ask as I am trying to figure out what kind of times in Pyrocat to try for a roll of Fuji 1600 shot at 640. (It's my exploratory trip for a using a faster film, and I chose Fuji 1600) Would doubling the water give me a greater window of opportunity? I'd try stand development but read that fast films are not good developed this way.Thoughts?

Tom Hoskinson · Jun 6, 2005

Hi Wayne, if you have not already done so, PM these questions to Sandy King.

john_s · Jun 6, 2005

Neopan1600 has a true speed of about 640, so you're not overexposing it. According to Fuji's pdf, it was designed to be developed in the same batch as Neopan 400 at the same dev time (I don't know if that is actually a universal truth for all developers, though).

FWIW, I develop Neopan400 in Pyrocat HD diluted (3mL + 3mL + 500mL) for 17 min with minimal agitation, so that might work for your Neopan1600.

waynecrider · Jun 6, 2005

john_s said:
Neopan1600 has a true speed of about 640, so you're not overexposing it. According to Fuji's pdf, it was designed to be developed in the same batch as Neopan 400 at the same dev time (I don't know if that is actually a universal truth for all developers, though).

FWIW, I develop Neopan400 in Pyrocat HD diluted (3mL + 3mL + 500mL) for 17 min with minimal agitation, so that might work for your Neopan1600.

John it sounds at least like a starting time. What's your agitation like?

john_s · Jun 6, 2005

I use a water bath for 3min first. Without it, I used to sometimes get some small discs of undedevelopment. Don't understand it really, since I haven't had an air bell for very many years. But the pre rinse solves it.

I agitate the developer by inversion for the first 2 min, then every 3min I give 2 inversions, fairly gentle, just enough to redistribute the developer. I use 500mL for one film.

noseoil · Jun 7, 2005

Wayne to answer your first question, overexposing film will enable you to reduce development times in order to compress the exposure scale. You will boost the shadow values so they have enough exposure to print well, then reduce development times to bring back what would be blown highlights with normal development.

My post this weekend of the Juniper & Oak trees is an example of this relationship. The exposure was 2 minutes 30 seconds (for shadow exposure, bellows, reciprocity, etc.) and development was reduced quite a bit to bring down the highlights. Otherwise, the part of the shot in the "V" would have been pure paper white without any substance. tim

Tom Stanworth · Jun 7, 2005

my gut feeling (complete guess!) is that you could have trouble getting 640 from the film in pyrocat. My experiences of this dev when used to produce negs for silver enlargement is lower speeds than ID11/D76 and much lower than DDX. I have used DDX at 800 with neopan 1600 and it is fine like this...about right (I do Fp4 plus at 64). 640 might therefore be a touch underexposed for pyrocat. FWIW I did quite a bit of 1600 and 400 neopan a fortnight back and whilst I have not got my records in front of me I recall the neopan 400 having a longer dev time. For UK light/contrast levels I have found the following OK:

Neopan 400 @400 in DDX 1:4 20 degs C for 7 mins
Neopan 1600 @800 in DDX for 5.5 mins

Above times are approx.
Normally faster films have longer dev times but according to DDX instructions it is less for the 1600. The 1600 came out lower in contrast but with reasonable shadow detail . So far I have had nicely exposed, surprisingly fine grained negs from Neopan 1600, but thats prob due to using a good speed increasig dev and keeping dev time sane. Bear in mind that overcast UK weather does not produce much highlights. If using in contrasty cconditions, beware!!!! I think lots have trouble with 1600 as they rate it as 1600, use a non-speed increasing dev and then dev the hell out of it to get the shadow speed thus blowing the highlights.

Just thoughts...

Daniel Lawton · Jun 7, 2005

On a side note how come there isn't some sort of comprehensive list giving ballpark times for different films with this developer? Being as popular as it is it seems that info on Pyrocat is very vague and haphazardly listed. I only ask because I am anticipating a delivery of Pyrocat HD from the Formulary and have been having trouble finding consistent times listed for APX 100 and Plus-X for 35mm.

noseoil · Jun 7, 2005

Pyrocat is a relatively new developer. Film testing is in order. tim

colrehogan · Jun 7, 2005

Daniel Lawton said:
On a side note how come there isn't some sort of comprehensive list giving ballpark times for different films with this developer? Being as popular as it is it seems that info on Pyrocat is very vague and haphazardly listed. I only ask because I am anticipating a delivery of Pyrocat HD from the Formulary and have been having trouble finding consistent times listed for APX 100 and Plus-X for 35mm.

I've noticed that too. Perhaps we should be making submissions to the Massive Development Chart. I have only developed Maco 820c IR and Tri-X sheet films with Pyrocat so far. Haven't had the time to make any prints, with this whole business with my home computer being upgraded at the moment. Tearing up the house looking for one !@#$%^& computer program CD hasn't helped, either.

Daniel Lawton · Jun 7, 2005

noseoil said:
Pyrocat is a relatively new developer. Film testing is in order. tim

If i'm not mistaken it came out in 1999 so in the grand scheme of things your right Tim. It just seems that there's not much cohesive or detailed info available for a developer that's been out for six years and seems to get favorable reviews.

dogzbum · Jun 7, 2005

Yep, I totally agree. See the previous thread I started below.
Come on people get off your bumz, do some testing and submit some times!!

PHP:

http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15459

sanking · Jun 7, 2005

waynecrider said:
What is the effect on developing times in general as film is increasingly overexposed and 2nd, as the solution is changed to using a higher concentration of "B'' stock? say 1:1:100 vs 1:1.5:100 vs 1:2:100.
I ask as I am trying to figure out what kind of times in Pyrocat to try for a roll of Fuji 1600 shot at 640. (It's my exploratory trip for a using a faster film, and I chose Fuji 1600) Would doubling the water give me a greater window of opportunity? I'd try stand development but read that fast films are not good developed this way.Thoughts?

In my article at unblinkingeye.com there are development times for quite a number of films in the last page of the article. These times are for graded silver papers (blue channel analysis) and alternative processes (UV analysis). I have also provided much more specifc times for AZO with a number of films on the AZO forum.

Unfortuantely I am at "camp" right now and don't have access to any data files. However, the basic dilution for silver papers is 1:1:100, for AZO and UV processes 2:2:100. VC silver papers are more complicated, but in general try using the 2:2:100 dilution and decreasing times about 20% from those recommended for AZO.

For very long times of development I recommend increasing the amount of A solution relative to the B solution. This will minimize oxidation and the development of general stain. For example, instead of a 2:2:100 dilution, use 3:2:100.

Sandy

noseoil · Jun 7, 2005

One problem I've found with using other people's times is that it doesn't work very well. A starting point is handy, but the best way to do this is to do your own tests and then work from there. There are too many variables in processing, light and exposure to have a be-all end-all number to use. This is not to say that a time from a chart is not going to work, but a simple time won't give you any solution to a more difficult exposure & development situation. Minus and plus development still need fine tuning to be correct. tim

waynecrider · Jun 7, 2005

Tom Stanworth said:
my gut feeling (complete guess!) is that you could have trouble getting 640 from the film in pyrocat. My experiences of this dev when used to produce negs for silver enlargement is lower speeds than ID11/D76 and much lower than DDX. highlights.

Just thoughts...

Well I was hopeing to find one developer to use for anything, and that gave me decent speeds, but it looks like it just isn't going to happen unless I switch to something else and give up the attributes of Pyrocat. That may not be a big deal overall. Maybe I'll go back to Xtol.

Since I've got two 35mm test rolls to develop I'll have data available soon on the combination.

Tom Stanworth · Jun 8, 2005

waynecrider said:
Well I was hopeing to find one developer to use for anything, and that gave me decent speeds, but it looks like it just isn't going to happen unless I switch to something else and give up the attributes of Pyrocat. That may not be a big deal overall. Maybe I'll go back to Xtol.

Since I've got two 35mm test rolls to develop I'll have data available soon on the combination.

There are alot of very good reasons to use pyrocat so I would not give up so easily! I decided a while ago that whilst pyrocat would be my main dev for 120 and LF, for some uses and all 35mm, I would use a 'normal dev'. I have been using DDX just to see what it is like and I can see why many like it. Great speed (I reckon fp4 plus is comfortably over 125 for street use where you want some good blacks!), fine grain and convenient. I just think it is a rip off at 1:4 (even 1:7 or 1:9), hence my move to start experiemnting with FX39, which provides goos speed and acutance. I also love Aculux 2 for the ffine yet crisp grain and wonderful tonality. As 35mm processing tends to be so simple (no N-, N+ times etc) why not use something else for your 1600 neopan....assuming it does not give you 640, as it may well do so?.

Which formats do you shoot?

waynecrider · Jun 8, 2005

Tom Stanworth said:
As 35mm processing tends to be so simple (no N-, N+ times etc) why not use something else for your 1600 neopan....assuming it does not give you 640, as it may well do so?.

Which formats do you shoot?

I shoot 35mm thru 120, and lately 4x5 with some PL100. I have a hard time with a 100 speed film, dof, filtering and wind in south florida with 4x5 film. My move to shoot 35mm this last week came about as a test for a fast film for mostly day and some night shooting in a light traveling kit. I also wanted to see the atributes of the Fui 1600. I may very well go back to Delta 400, but in 35mm this time as I shot up all my 4x5 Delta 400 stock.

Trying to figure out Pyrocat times.

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