Trying new papers for Pt/Pd - how to solve paper crinkling after coating...

nick mulder · Nov 25, 2007

no solution sorry!

hoping you could help me though - I am running dry on paper and thought that I should see if what I had locally (at much less cost) could be suitable for Pt/Pd...

One paper I thought I'd give a crack for interests sake is this:

Dead Link Removed

it's a 110gsm tracing paper I used when at architecture school ... It prints very nice deep blacks and as far as I can tell a near total-neutral tone in pure palladium, clears in seconds flat too ... nice thing about it is that you can change the tone of the final print by putting different toned papers behind it - aaaand as I'm hoping use it as a positive film (in reverse) for photopolymer processes ...

cool!

one problem:

Once the coating is dry the paper will crinkle/shrivel up so that in a contact print frame there are sections out of contact and therefore out of focus - compressing it under much more pressure will flatten it, but leave much finer crinkles, flat enough to print with and retain edge definition - but upon washing these crinkles will loosen up and cause image blah-bad-boohoo - aaand once again form upon drying (in different places too)

Is there any way I can treat the paper somehow to solve this issue ?

nick

Peter Schrager · Nov 25, 2007

paper

cannot speak direct of this paper but I have had success with the bienfang tracing paper. IT MADE SOME REALLY FINE PRINTS FOR ME. the paper has changed over time and all I can say is to try it... the crinkling only came in the washing or dev part of the process. sometimes I would lose a print and sometimes not but there was never a problem in the contact part of the process. check your contact printer. the prints that made it through were beautiful.. some people use a sort of net device to support the paper during the wet phase..good luck...
Best, Peter

nick mulder · Nov 25, 2007

They do make really nice prints huh,

The paper is actually stretchy when drying, returning somewhat to its original shape after tension is released ... I might try some sort of stretchy device akin to taping down watercolor paper when wet ...

fun!

Peter Schrager · Nov 25, 2007

paper

Nick-it is all in the amount of effort one wants to put into the process. if you want to have prints that look just like "yours" alone I say go for it. I still have a stash of the bienfang and intend on using it again in the near future these processes are only as hard as one makes them. if you can stick with it and master the paper it will be worth it...
Best, Peter

boyooso · Nov 25, 2007

I've heard of people using screens to hold the prints during processing, like the screen in your window.

I suppose you would need to make sure the screen wasn't metal though...

I have worked with some 20 gsm paper, and had it crickle during coating.. you might take see if the crinkling is happening because of your brush action.

Good Luck,

Corey

philldresser · Nov 26, 2007

Can you not size the paper like you would for watercolours by soaking it in water and taping it to a board. It would then dry taunt. Applying sensitizer would then not cause it to crinkle. Worth a try?

Phill

nick mulder · Nov 26, 2007

philldresser said:
Can you not size the paper like you would for watercolours by soaking it in water and taping it to a board. It would then dry taunt. Applying sensitizer would then not cause it to crinkle. Worth a try?

Phill

yip! I'm going to try it

from earlier > "I might try some sort of stretchy device akin to taping down watercolor paper when wet ..."

I just need a bit of perspex or glass - hardwood which I usually use with water colors might do funny things to the chems being mostly the gunk that holds the 'wood' together...

Hopefully my watercolor tape will stand up to the chems also - either that or I resort to gaffer - the Nashua brand is used to weld submarines together so it might do ok

nick mulder · Nov 26, 2007

Here it is just after coating onto a bit of glass:

It was very taut after everything dried up, but got a little crinkly again upon coating as you might be able to see - btw, it seems to soak up more solution now...

Will try a neg after breakfast

RobertP · Nov 26, 2007

I find that with papers that have a lot of curl, such as Swiss Opaline that I use, that if you reduce your border size and coat the entire sheet it will reduce the surface tension or equalize the tension across the sheet, reducing the paper curl. You can always regain the border by masking it with rubylith during printing. Robert

nick mulder · Nov 26, 2007

It tightened up again when it dried and fitted perfectly in my contact print frame:

Exposure:

its currently washing and has got major crinkle action going on... The tape seems to be holding and hopefully it will tighten up again upon drying so I can simply cut it out of the frame like watercolor ...

nick mulder · Nov 26, 2007

bumz...

its all crinkled again ... At least I got a good image on the film though - I'm going to try soaking it for ages (hours) before mounting on the glass - one more try

RobertP · Nov 26, 2007

I know you are determined to make your glass system work. I too tried this a few years ago. When you are coating only half the surface (or close). The half that is taking the solution is expanding the paper not contracting it. The wide border that has no solution has to give in some way because it is not expanding with the part of the paper that is absorbing the solution. Coat the whole sheet so the expansion is across the whole sheet and not just in the center of the paper. Reduce your border size so you are not using to much excess solution. ( unless money is no object) Then you can mask an area 1 inch or so with rubylith during printing so the border will clear when you process the print. Some papers will continue to expand and contract no matter how long you soak or how many times. Plus if you are getting a nice flat registration during printing and then the paper curls again while processing and drying, you can always flatten the print again (once dried) in a dry mount press before corner or hinge mounting it. Which is the normal mounting procedure for most Pt/PD printers.

RobertP · Nov 26, 2007

Also by long continuous soaks you may be changing the sizing and the ph of the paper that can also present problems for Pd/Pt printing. But have fun with it anyway. Trial and error is a great teacher. Let us know what you come up with.

bwphoto · Nov 26, 2007

Nick,
I have been using the Bienfang 360 paper with pretty good results and you are correct re. the wrinkling/curling issue. I am not sure if it was mentioned to you but try placing a coated paper (before exposure) in a dry mount press, make sure it is set the lowest temperature for about 10 to 15 seconds, to start. I have been doing this with good results and have not seen any visible degradation of the final image. Although, it may be well to try a test w/one not pressed in the dry mounter and one with and view resulting images for comparison. I hope this helps and good luck to you.
Bob

nick mulder · Nov 28, 2007

I tried another stretch today but left the paper to soak in near boiling water as it cooled down over half an hour - upon coating with Pd I got small section crinkle, no where near the same as the first attempt - I'll expose it tomorrow morning and we'll see what happens in the wash...

If this doesn't work I'll leave it as I dont want to use up all my expensive chems. Interesting trying something out though - I'm pretty sure if someone had the inclination they could get it to work using the same method ... I sound like I'm doomed to fail! We'll see tomorrow

Kerik · Nov 28, 2007

If you're looking for a thin, vellum paper to print pt/pd I'd recommend Clearprint Drafting Vellum. It doesn't wrinkle nearly as much and despite being thin, is quite strong when it's wet. For larger prints, I prefer the 1020 version, which is thicker. It is still a good idea to coat the whole sheet, or at least an area a few inches larger than the size of your negative. This keeps the wrinkling away from the image area. Also, I suggest you double-coat this paper with two relatively thin coats. Use maybe 60% of your normal volume on each coat. I've tried MANY vellum papers over the years and this one works the best for me. Also, it is CHEAP.

nick mulder · Nov 29, 2007

almost there! - it printed and washed dry totally flat .... buuuut it stuck to the glass and I had to rip it off - so, next iteration I'm going to put a thin film of photoflo or just plain ol' soap on the glass before stretching the paper, this will either make it much worse or better

RobertP · Nov 29, 2007

Sticking to the glass would make me ask am I giving it such a volatile soak with high temps and extra long soaks that it is damaging the fibers of the paper. But a close inspection would tell you that. I remember using the old platinotype that would look beautiful and printed in very nice tones. But it would develope a case of the fuzzies as though the fibers were breaking down once processed. But this is even without a presoak. I have never used platinotype since it almost cost me a show due to the black plague. Your progress sounds encouraging though. Keep up the good work. Robert

Trying new papers for Pt/Pd - how to solve paper crinkling after coating...

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