Trust!

Chan Tran · Nov 19, 2024

It's about ethics and phiosophy but it's not photography and it's about trust. I did quite a few of sales and giving away and getting free stuff from other photrio members. It works out very well when we trust eachother. We just send the item and the money we don't need the other to prove anything. We don't need to receive payment first. We don't need to use paypal. The process is much quicker and save us fee. The fee is what we have to pay when we don't trust eachother.
I was about to sell a thermometer for someone and I did post a picture of the thermometer and I accept the first offer the person made. I also the price was very reasonable. However, the person wanted me to post another picture with hand written note with the date to prove that I have it. I feel offended and I also think how can I trust the person if he doesn't trust me.
However, I would like to thanks member Rick A. who sent me his camera and lens before he receive my payment so I get it quickly. Thank you.

MattKing · Nov 19, 2024

Just a heads up from a moderator's perspective - I can see this thread going off track easily, so if it should be locked and/or removed after consideration by the moderation team because of problems that arise, please do not take that personally.
From a personal perspective ...
I spent a majority of my working life helping many people deal with problems. And in many cases, those problems arose because of the actions of others.
I totally understand an unwillingness to extend trust if someone has had their trust abused in the past, or has witnessed the ramifications of others having their trust abused in the past.
And I also understand why someone unfamiliar with you might not feel confident enough to extend trust, because of that lack of knowledge about you.
Those of us who have spent a lot of time here, over a long period of time, have all sorts of indirect experience with many people here, without ever actually meeting them. Not everyone has the benefit of that experience.
I believe I noticed the communication you referenced.
And when I did, I thought that it was both unfortunate that the person felt the need to ask what they did, and generally unfortunate that it was probably a good thing to ask of someone you weren't familiar with, but intended to transact business with.
I expect that if you asked a police officer who was involved with internet based transaction fraud, they would support that request as being a safe and prudent thing to do. And safe and prudent often can appear cynical and skeptical.
And back to the moderator's perspective - we would generally caution those who buy and sell things through contacts that arose here to proceed with care and caution. It is often a harsh world out there.

radialMelt · Nov 19, 2024

Since you're going to call me out publicly, I'd like get out in front of that and say it was I that requested verification of the item. I am surprised that this offended you. That was certainly not my intention.

But on the other hand is this such a strange practice to you? Do you transact often in the online space? Can you not put yourself in a prospective buyer's shoes and sympathize? Unfortunately - irrespective of your feelings on the matter - scams are more and more prevalent in the online trading space. Providing extra verification, whether it be additional photos, a video call demonstrating the item, or a handwritten timestamp, is a very common practice, and in some online forums a mandatory one. It is an easy, stress-free way of protecting one's proverbial butt.

While it would be lovely to live in a world where everyone is an honest, upstanding citizen and we can all go about our business knowing there's nobody out there waiting to take advantage of someone else, the hard truth is that this world is not that.

I wish you the best of luck in all your future transactions, online or otherwise. And I hope you enjoy your thermometer.

radialMelt · Nov 19, 2024

MattKing said:
Just a heads up from a moderator's perspective - I can see this thread going off track easily, so if it should be locked and/or removed after consideration by the moderation team because of problems that arise, please do not take that personally.
From a personal perspective ...
I spent a majority of my working life helping many people deal with problems. And in many cases, those problems arose because of the actions of others.
I totally understand an unwillingness to extend trust if someone has had their trust abused in the past, or has witnessed the ramifications of others having their trust abused in the past.
And I also understand why someone unfamiliar with you might not feel confident enough to extend trust, because of that lack of knowledge about you.
Those of us who have spent a lot of time here, over a long period of time, have all sorts of indirect experience with many people here, without ever actually meeting them. Not everyone has the benefit of that experience.
I believe I noticed the communication you referenced.
And when I did, I thought that it was both unfortunate that the person felt the need to ask what they did, and generally unfortunate that it was probably a good thing to ask of someone you weren't familiar with, but intended to transact business with.
I expect that if you asked a police officer who was involved with internet based transaction fraud, they would support that request as being a safe and prudent thing to do. And safe and prudent often can appear cynical and skeptical.
And back to the moderator's perspective - we would generally caution those who buy and sell things through contacts that arose here to proceed with care and caution. It is often a harsh world out there.

Thank you, Matt. I agree re: the lines between safe and prudent, and cynical and skeptical being blurred. I maintain that in this day and age, a little bit of cynicism can go a long way. I was absolutely nothing but polite and forthcoming with my intentions.

Sirius Glass · Nov 19, 2024

Chan Tran said:
It's about ethics and phiosophy but it's not photography and it's about trust. I did quite a few of sales and giving away and getting free stuff from other photrio members. It works out very well when we trust eachother. We just send the item and the money we don't need the other to prove anything. We don't need to receive payment first. We don't need to use paypal. The process is much quicker and save us fee. The fee is what we have to pay when we don't trust eachother.
I was about to sell a thermometer for someone and I did post a picture of the thermometer and I accept the first offer the person made. I also the price was very reasonable. However, the person wanted me to post another picture with hand written note with the date to prove that I have it. I feel offended and I also think how can I trust the person if he doesn't trust me.
However, I would like to thanks member Rick A. who sent me his camera and lens before he receive my payment so I get it quickly. Thank you.

If either the buyer or the seller cannot get on the same trust level, then it is probably best if they stop dealing with each other.

I have suggested that the seller I am talking to receive and cash my check and then the check clears before they send me the item.
I use PayPal and not PayPal friends and family because I want an avenue of recourse it something goes wrong. You may feel differently, but could you accept that for a transaction?

MattKing · Nov 19, 2024

radialMelt said:
Thank you, Matt. I agree re: the lines between safe and prudent, and cynical and skeptical can be blurred. I maintain that in this day and age, a little bit of cynicism can go a long way. I was absolutely nothing but polite and forthcoming with my intentions.

You should probably also understand then that, for whatever reason, when I saw your request it was the first time I had seen it made here on Photrio (and its predecessor, APUG) in the 19 years I have been around.
I too found it slightly jarring, even while thinking it prudent, appropriate and maybe even wise.

BrianShaw · Nov 19, 2024

Trust needs to be earned, even on Photrio. Just because someone has been on Photrio for a long time doesn’t necessarily imply trustworthiness. Trust me on that.

radialMelt · Nov 19, 2024

MattKing said:
You should probably also understand then that, for whatever reason, when I saw your request it was the first time I had seen it made here on Photrio (and its predecessor, APUG) in the 19 years I have been around.
I too found it slightly jarring, even while thinking it prudent, appropriate and maybe even wise.

In the other marketplaces I frequent it is a very common practice, and like I said, even mandatory in some cases. In the matter of a financial transaction, prudence and wisdom - and safety - will take precedence over feelings any day of the week, in my opinion.

CMoore · Nov 19, 2024

Chan Tran said:
It's about ethics and phiosophy but it's not photography and it's about trust. I did quite a few of sales and giving away and getting free stuff from other photrio members. It works out very well when we trust eachother. We just send the item and the money we don't need the other to prove anything. We don't need to receive payment first. We don't need to use paypal. The process is much quicker and save us fee. The fee is what we have to pay when we don't trust eachother.
I was about to sell a thermometer for someone and I did post a picture of the thermometer and I accept the first offer the person made. I also the price was very reasonable. However, the person wanted me to post another picture with hand written note with the date to prove that I have it. I feel offended and I also think how can I trust the person if he doesn't trust me.
However, I would like to thanks member Rick A. who sent me his camera and lens before he receive my payment so I get it quickly. Thank you.

I realize we cannot be naive , country bumpkins regarding these scenarios, but......... YES.
Doesn't life just Feel Better when you (can) live it this way.

Again, being real, with eyes wide open but...... he sent you the item, of course you sent the money. Why wouldn't you...... Right.?

I sold a Nikon F2 a few years ago. We talked, agreed on a price and i packed it up with a label.
Right before i was going to send it, he contacted me to say his van just gave up and it needs a major repair.

I said...
"No worries. Let me ship this thing and you can pay me later.
If the 150 bux becomes an impossibility..... just forget it.
Keep the camera and worry not. I can afford it.
My parents, watching from Heaven, INSIST"

I was selling a guitar amp head, on a music forum, and a similar situation occurred.
It was 1400 dollars.
I had seen the guy post for several years. He seemed like an honest human.
So i shipped it and told him to pay me later.
He asked if he could make payments..
I said sure.
That guy sent me 100 bux a month, with a miss here and there, for 2 years.!
When he could not make a payment during a certain month, he shot me an email and let me know.
He was very appreciative and so was I.
Life Feels GOOD when you (can) live it this way.

And yes, there have been plenty of times in my 65 years when others have been kind To ME

One People
One World

MattKing · Nov 19, 2024

radialMelt said:
In the other marketplaces I frequent it is a very common practice, and like I said, even mandatory in some cases. In the matter of a financial transaction, prudence and wisdom - and safety - will take precedence over feelings any day of the week, in my opinion.

All of which highlights another thing that we say regularly here.
People should move discussions about the details of their transactions to a Private Conversation, instead of discussing same in the public forums.
And they should take the opportunity to make clear exactly what each expects of the other.
The visible-to-all nature of the forums serves as a disincentive to that clarity.

radialMelt · Nov 19, 2024

MattKing said:
All of which highlights another thing that we say regularly here.
People should move discussions about the details of their transactions to a Private Conversation, instead of discussing same in the public forums.
And they should take the opportunity to make clear exactly what each expects of the other.
The visible-to-all nature of the forums serves as a disincentive to that clarity.

Not sure what you're getting at here, Matt, as that is exactly what I did.

MattKing · Nov 19, 2024

In a private Conversation, you would both have had the opportunity to discuss your respective expectations as well as your past practices and experiences.
Building an understanding of where each of you are coming from helps avoid misunderstandings.

Chan Tran · Nov 19, 2024

Sirius Glass said:
If either the buyer or the seller cannot get on the same trust level, then it is probably best if they stop dealing with each other.

I have suggested that the seller I am talking to receive and cash my check and then the check clears before they send me the item.
I use PayPal and not PayPal friends and family because I want an avenue of recourse it something goes wrong. You may feel differently, but could you accept that for a transaction?

While I prefer not to use Paypal but if someone insist I do understand as well as using Paypal as a transaction for good and service I do understand that. What I don't understand that the person think it's possible that I try to sell something I don't own and posting an image that I stole from somewhere. If I do have the item but I don't send it what the difference.

rcphoto · Nov 19, 2024

I don't think it's unreasonable to want someone to prove they have an item before it's paid for. It is too simple for someone to be scammed when dealing online. Business is business and it is best to try and keep emotions out of the transactions.

Chan Tran · Nov 19, 2024

rcphoto said:
I don't think it's unreasonable to want someone to prove they have an item before it's paid for. It is too simple for someone to be scammed when dealing online. Business is business and it is best to try and keep emotions out of the transactions.

If I want to scam you I can prove to you that I have a lot of stuff to sell but what if I simply don't send it? Of course you are going to get a refund whether I don't have the item or have it but don't send it. What's the difference?
If you don't trust the other you can never be sure. What if I send you a good item but then after receiving it you send me a picture of something else and claim that I send the bad item.

BrianShaw · Nov 19, 2024

Try to not take it so personally. A difficult buyer is a difficult buyer. Doesn’t really imply that you would be a difficult seller.

rcphoto · Nov 19, 2024

Chan Tran said:
If I want to scam you I can prove to you that I have a lot of stuff to sell but what if I simply don't send it? Of course you are going to get a refund whether I don't have the item or have it but don't send it. What's the difference?

If I was trying to buy from you and received this kind of response, I would immediately assume you were scamming. Someone who is willing to prove they have the item is generally more likely to send the item thus reducing some risk.

Sirius Glass · Nov 19, 2024

Chan Tran said:
While I prefer not to use Paypal but if someone insist I do understand as well as using Paypal as a transaction for good and service I do understand that. What I don't understand that the person think it's possible that I try to sell something I don't own and posting an image that I stole from somewhere. If I do have the item but I don't send it what the difference.

Unfortunately, there are dishonest people who take advantage of people with money to spend. The other person was just being careful.

mshchem · Nov 19, 2024

I had a long time member of Large format photography forum try to rip me and several others off. Totally out of character. I paid for it as a purchase of merchandise so PayPal and Visa had my back.

Trust but verify, no reason to take offense, just good business.
Best Regards Mike

CMoore · Nov 20, 2024

Chan Tran said:
While I prefer not to use Paypal but if someone insist I do understand as well as using Paypal as a transaction for good and service I do understand that. What I don't understand that the person think it's possible that I try to sell something I don't own and posting an image that I stole from somewhere. If I do have the item but I don't send it what the difference.

Chan Tran said:
If I want to scam you I can prove to you that I have a lot of stuff to sell but what if I simply don't send it? Of course you are going to get a refund whether I don't have the item or have it but don't send it. What's the difference?
If you don't trust the other you can never be sure. What if I send you a good item but then after receiving it you send me a picture of something else and claim that I send the bad item.

Yeah, absolutely a possibility.

Answer me this Batman ..............what was the price of the thermometer.?
thank you

Chan Tran · Nov 20, 2024

CMoore said:
Yeah, absolutely a possibility.

Answer me this Batman ..............what was the price of the thermometer.?
thank you

$75 which is I think a very reasonable price for a Kodak Process Thermometer Type 3 and it was the first offer that person made. I didn't hagger at all.

ChrisGalway · Nov 20, 2024

If I wanted an item that someone who had been on Photrio/APUG for 18 years had posted, I'd would not question it's authenticity ... of course I would trust them.

What's more important in your life: trust or money?

koraks · Nov 20, 2024

I don't think that's a very meaningful dichotomy.

I understand that you found the request for verification a little odd given your experiences here on Photrio (mine are quite similar). On the other hand, means of verification are becoming more common, which is consistent with the ever expanding means with which scammers are trying to conduct their shady business. I wouldn't make too much of it, and especially not take it personal.

"I demand you trust me". Never really worked very well, that one.

cerber0s · Nov 20, 2024

Chan Tran said:
If I want to scam you I can prove to you that I have a lot of stuff to sell but what if I simply don't send it? Of course you are going to get a refund whether I don't have the item or have it but don't send it. What's the difference?
If you don't trust the other you can never be sure. What if I send you a good item but then after receiving it you send me a picture of something else and claim that I send the bad item.

A lot of scams are based on photos of items that the “seller” doesn’t actually have. By asking for proof that the item in question is in fact in the seller’s possession, you significantly reduce the risk of getting scammed.

There’s this guitar forum I used to frequent. A while back a very well known and respected member suddenly started scamming people by selling stuff he didn’t actually have. It turned out his account had been high jacked, and was being used for shady business based on the trust the member had built for almost a decade. We can’t always know that the person behind the account is the person that usually is behind the account. If that makes sense.

Chan Tran · Nov 20, 2024

cerber0s said:
A lot of scams are based on photos of items that the “seller” doesn’t actually have. By asking for proof that the item in question is in fact in the seller’s possession, you significantly reduce the risk of getting scammed.

There’s this guitar forum I used to frequent. A while back a very well known and respected member suddenly started scamming people by selling stuff he didn’t actually have. It turned out his account had been high jacked, and was being used for shady business based on the trust the member had built for almost a decade. We can’t always know that the person behind the account is the person that usually is behind the account. If that makes sense.

No that doesn't make sense. Whether or not someone has the item he/she still can scam you or not just the same. Proving that the person has the item doesn't make a difference.

Trust!

Chan Tran

MattKing

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radialMelt

radialMelt

Sirius Glass

MattKing

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BrianShaw

radialMelt

CMoore

MattKing

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radialMelt

MattKing

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Chan Tran

rcphoto

Chan Tran

BrianShaw

rcphoto

Sirius Glass

mshchem

CMoore

Chan Tran

ChrisGalway

koraks

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cerber0s

Chan Tran

Trust!

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