Trouble with Neopan Acros 100

Richard S. (rich815) · Jan 5, 2015

Thomas Bertilsson said:
An inherent problem with thread based conversations like these is that very few people actually read all of the information before answering. I'm guilty of it too, and sometimes answer questions that have not been asked.

But something in post #1? I understand often not reading the whole thread but I would hope people would read that.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 5, 2015

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:
But something in post #1? I understand often not reading the whole thread but I would hope people would read that.

I know... It's pretty funny, actually.

Andrew Moxom · Jan 6, 2015

Remember... Airbells can occur during presoak. Remember to agitiate, even with just water!!!! So if you have soaked your film and it now has airbells on it, and you now add in developer. There are now areas of the film with inconsistently swollen emulsion spots that will show up during development because the film absorbs developer differently in the lesser soaked areas. I would avoid ANY presoak.... Especially if you do not agitate during the pre-soak.... It will cause more harm than good.

Agitation should be slow methodical figure of 8 inversion, and rotation of the tank, and a gentle rap when back upright. It's possible to over do it.

winger · Jan 6, 2015

paulbarden said:
You know, that's what I thought those marks looked like, but I discounted the possibility because I WHACK the heck out of my (steel) tanks when I presoak and the first couple of minutes after the developer goes in. I'm a bit casual about my presoak times and I am certain that the presoak often goes far longer than 2 minutes... I have a hard time accepting the notion that I am not working hard enough to dislodge air bubbles - but perhaps its true. Do you suppose my mineral-free water is working against me when I presoak with it? Is it possible that a presoak is not the right thing for this particular film? (I've heard it said that some films potentially fare better when the first liquid the emulsion encounters is the developer)

Thank you for your suggestions. Any other ideas?

Are you whacking the tank with your hand or thumping it down on a counter at an angle? My example above is either Delta 100 or HP5+ in 4x5 and was only thumping the tank against my hand. Usually I bang the tank on the counter at an angle, but I'd had some sheets dislodge on the previous batch and I was being too gentle this time (I also got uneven development).

I also second what Andrew Moxom wrote. And I've never used a presoak with Acros and have been fine.

StoneNYC · Jan 6, 2015

Andrew Moxom said:
Remember... Airbells can occur during presoak. Remember to agitiate, even with just water!!!! So if you have soaked your film and it now has airbells on it, and you now add in developer. There are now areas of the film with inconsistently swollen emulsion spots that will show up during development because the film absorbs developer differently in the lesser soaked areas. I would avoid ANY presoak.... Especially if you do not agitate during the pre-soak.... It will cause more harm than good.

Agitation should be slow methodical figure of 8 inversion, and rotation of the tank, and a gentle rap when back upright. It's possible to over do it.

I read the whole thread and was waiting for someone to mention this, because that's what I was thinking, the OP mentions shaking vigorously during the development process, but doesn't mention if they also make sure to tap the tank really well when they put in the water in the presoak, my guess is that the presoak is leaving what are bubbles and that's where the issue is coming from.

I shot tons of sheets of Acros100 and tons of rolls of Acros100 and I've never had this problem ever. I'm very careful to presoak, to agitate and tap the tank, and careful with my development temperature. I am less careful with my stop and fix temperatures, and have never had any kind of reticulation issues but other people mention etc. I do not use special ionized water or anything like that, I do use what are the comes out of my sink that does pass through a filter, however I haven't change the filter in five years, so I'm not sure how good it really is at this point. I do not however have any kind of issues with mineralized water, because I get my water from the city and we happen to have some of the best water in the country when it comes to it's processing, still I think the main issue is just tapping the tank better to remove the bubbles.

Good luck!

Sal Santamaura · Jan 6, 2015

paulbarden said:
It seems a few of you missed the fact that, in my original post, I stated that all of my chemistry is made using only reverse osmosis water, which I measure as having no more than 3ppm of total dissolved solids. And so, I very much doubt water quality is an issue. Do you concur?

I concur. All my processing is done with steam-distilled water. It does not ameliorate the Acros airbells problem.

RidingWaves said:
...All fuji B&W films benefit tremendously from a full complete vigorous initial agitation of at least 45 sec preferably one full minutes...EVEN WITH A PRE-SOAK!!...

I always provide one minute of continuous initial agitation for all film/developer combinations, both during any presoak and when starting the developer step. With Acros it makes no difference; airbells regardless.

Andrew Moxom said:
...Remember to agitiate, even with just water...

I've always agitated during the presoak(s), when using them. Acros still develops airbells.

Andrew Moxom said:
...Agitation should be slow methodical figure of 8 inversion, and rotation of the tank, and a gentle rap when back upright. It's possible to over do it.

I've tried Acros that way, very vigorously and everything in between. No airbell help.

winger said:
Are you whacking the tank with your hand or thumping it down on a counter at an angle?...

I've tried both approaches and everything in between with Acros. No change in airbell appearance.

The only successful Acros development I've experienced was sheet film in a Jobo Expert Drum on a processor. For inversion-processed roll film, 100TMX is the only fine-grained, high-resolving power option (I haven't tried document films) that works here.

pentaxpete · Jan 6, 2015

That post about at least 45 secs continuous agitation for Fuji films is interesting -- never read about that before -- I have never had 'airbells' on any make of film, using the British Paterson plastic tanks and sometimes I have tried a 1 minute pre-soak and no pre-soak to see any difference and I NEVER 'Bang' or 'Tap' the tank in case the plastic gets broken -- just some inversions !!

Xmas · Jan 6, 2015

pentaxpete said:
That post about at least 45 secs continuous agitation for Fuji films is interesting -- never read about that before -- I have never had 'airbells' on any make of film, using the British Paterson plastic tanks and sometimes I have tried a 1 minute pre-soak and no pre-soak to see any difference and I NEVER 'Bang' or 'Tap' the tank in case the plastic gets broken -- just some inversions !!

Ditto I never found out about pre-soaking till I surfed the net.
Good water quality is bad!
Developer is alkaline and behaves like washing aid ie wetting the film readily.
Borax and washing soda are both wash aids... Suitable for front loader or tub machines.
But you do need to wet promptly so if you use inversion you need to use the minimum amount of developer, just to cover the reels slap the lid on and

invert and hold till it drains to the top
Return upright and hold till it drains to bottom
Repeat until bored

Note with the Agfa daylight tanks the procedure is different.

StoneNYC · Jan 6, 2015

Sorry OP for your issues.

Let me ask if you questions, mainly about how you store your film, do you store it in the freezer or the fridge? Do you not stored in either?

It almost looks like you could possibly have humidity issues on your film, I know that's crazy but it's possible?

I can't think of anything else at this moment but it just seems very odd, none of us seem to have this issue specifically with this film or anything.

removedacct1 · Jan 6, 2015

RidingWaves said:
I've stated this before and I will again;

A FULL COMPLETE VIGOROUS INITIAL AGITATION OF AT LEAST 45 SECONDS PREFERABLY ONE FULL MINUTE.

If you are not doing this then I don't want to hear any more. Fuji films are different and that is that. Deal with it or keep having problems. I hate to be harsh on this point but

thank you, rant over. don't let me catch you again. stay off my lawn and turn down that rap music

Ummm...hello, I am new to APUG. But I'm not new to darkroom materials and techniques. In fact, I daresay at a peak period of my darkroom work (forty plus years, I might add), I processed literally thousands of rolls of 120 B&W film - by hand. It doesn't matter one bit that none of it was Fuji emulsion or whatever. What matters is that some people, in their frustration over the fact that - dagnabbit - they've had to say this forty thousand million times before and - gosh - here there have to say it again and so they take a tone that is bordering on rudeness, and is at the very least, unfriendly. Its a fact that there will always be new people coming into discussion forums and there will always be some of them who ask the same tired old questions, year after year. In your own words, sir - "deal with it". If you simply cannot stand to offer this same bit of paltry advice yet again, then just refrain from saying anything. Thanks! *rant over*

But hey - thanks for your sage advice. Seriously. I will do as you suggest (although I do agitate during the presoak and I agitate for one full minute at the start of development) and report back on my results ASAP.

Kind regards,
Paul

PS: how can you expect me to keep your grass trimmed if you keep telling me to stay off your lawn??

removedacct1 · Jan 6, 2015

Xmas said:
Ditto I never found out about pre-soaking till I surfed the net.
Good water quality is bad!
Developer is alkaline and behaves like washing aid ie wetting the film readily.

Thank you. I am going to skip the presoak *gasp* next time and see if that makes any difference. Yes, yes - I know there will be some of you who think I'm wasting my time and film, but if this particular emulsion does behave better if it comes in contact with the developer first (wetting agent style action), then I expect I will see evidence of that. Its only one roll of film, and I've got the time, so what the heck, right? Since I've had this air bell problem on every roll of Acros to some degree or other, If I find even a single roll behaving differently when I omit the presoak, that is enough data for me to persist in the adjusted technique - until the data suggests otherwise.

Again, thank you all for your advice.

Paul

Bob Carnie · Jan 6, 2015

I AGREE 100% with Winger.. looks like water marks
this is not an emulsion defect IMO.

winger said:
Despite your presoak, they look like air bubbles to me. Are you very diligent at thumping the tank after agitating?
Here are some air bubbles of mine.

removedacct1 · Jan 6, 2015

Bob Carnie said:
I AGREE 100% with Winger.. looks like water marks
this is not an emulsion defect IMO.

Yup, I think we've all come to the same conclusion Surprises me, considering the fact that I do presoak and I do agaitate during the presoak and I do agitate for a full minute when introducing the developer and I do bang the steel tank on the counter very aggressively, etc etc. If I have fallen short on any point here, its that I am casual about agitation during presoak, so I will agitate the entire time next round, or - as I suggested a few minutes ago - skip it completely and go straight to the developer.

Thanks.

Sal Santamaura · Jan 6, 2015

StoneNYC said:
...how you store your film, do you store it in the freezer or the fridge? Do you not stored in either?...

My Acros airbells have occurred whether the film was cold-stored or fresh, long-dated rolls used immediately upon purchase. No difference.

StoneNYC said:
...It almost looks like you could possibly have humidity issues on your film...

Those are airbells formed during processing, not anything that resulted from condensation/humidity.

StoneNYC said:
...it just seems very odd, none of us seem to have this issue specifically with this film...

Read all posts. I have had the exact same issue with Acros.

StoneNYC · Jan 6, 2015

Since we are talking about learning something by "wasting" a roll of film, why don't you take a piece of film from the test role, and cut it (in the dark) take it out and put it in a reel (in the light) and drop that piece of film that is in the reel into a clear plastic container.

Then you can watch how the film reacts to being inserted into the water, you can see if the air bubbles attach or not, and you will have a better idea of what happened during the development process, Heck you could go all the way and develop the film as well to see if it will stick to it or not but do it all in the light so that you can see what the film actually looks like and if it is actually having air bubbles attached to it. In fact you could also take a clipping from another film (like tmy-2 or something you have not had issues with) and do both at the same time one on each side of the reel to view the differences in how the air bubbles attached on each film.

This would give you the best visual of understanding how the film reacts in the tank.

Just a thought.

StoneNYC · Jan 6, 2015

Sal Santamaura said:
My Acros airbells have occurred whether the film was cold-stored or fresh, long-dated rolls used immediately upon purchase. No difference.

Those are airbells formed during processing, not anything that resulted from condensation/humidity.

Read all posts. I have had the exact same issue with Acros.

Sal, I could read all the posts, but I obviously mixed up the names.

After I'm done shooting a film, I tend to throw it back into the refrigerator until I'm ready to develop, this keeps it a little more stable I feel and less chance of degradation, I started this habit because of PanF+ which helps with latent image failure. My thought was that maybe something like this was happening with the OP where the difference in temperature between the film and the water caused it to have more issues than normal because of it's already slick surface and then the differences in temperature between two materials. Just throwing out ideas to see what might stick.

removedacct1 · Jan 6, 2015

StoneNYC said:
Since we are talking about learning something by "wasting" a roll of film, why don't you take a piece of film from the test role, and cut it (in the dark) take it out and put it in a reel (in the light) and drop that piece of film that is in the reel into a clear plastic container.

Then you can watch how the film reacts to being inserted into the water, you can see if the air bubbles attach or not, and you will have a better idea of what happened during the development process, Heck you could go all the way and develop the film as well to see if it will stick to it or not but do it all in the light so that you can see what the film actually looks like and if it is actually having air bubbles attached to it. In fact you could also take a clipping from another film (like tmy-2 or something you have not had issues with) and do both at the same time one on each side of the reel to view the differences in how the air bubbles attached on each film.

This would give you the best visual of understanding how the film reacts in the tank.

Just a thought.

Those are all excellent suggestions! I think I will pursue most - if not all - of your test ideas. Thank you for that smart bit of advise

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 6, 2015

Since you use RO water, which is a high pressure process, it may introduce lots of air into the water. You will see how these air bubbles vanish when you boil the water. Just before reaching the boiling point it is most visible.

Try boiling your water you use to mix your developer. Just grasping at straws here. It will eliminate a lot of the air bubbles trapped in the water. Just let it cool to the appropriate temp before using it.

removedacct1 · Jan 6, 2015

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Since you use RO water, which is a high pressure process, it may introduce lots of air into the water. You will see how these air bubbles vanish when you boil the water. Just before reaching the boiling point it is most visible.

Try boiling your water you use to mix your developer. Just grasping at straws here. It will eliminate a lot of the air bubbles trapped in the water. Just let it cool to the appropriate temp before using it.

I've considered that, in fact. But the water I use is generally taken from the RO tank days before it gets used for film processing (I keep several 5 gallon tanks always filled, in case of power failure here - we are on a well system), and I would think even 24 hours is plenty of time to disperse any dissolved gasses in the water. I see no evidence of gasses in my RO water jugs. I really doubt that is an issue in this process, but thanks for suggesting it as a possibility.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 6, 2015

paulbarden said:
I've considered that, in fact. But the water I use is generally taken from the RO tank days before it gets used for film processing (I keep several 5 gallon tanks always filled, in case of power failure here - we are on a well system), and I would think even 24 hours is plenty of time to disperse any dissolved gasses in the water. I see no evidence of gasses in my RO water jugs. I really doubt that is an issue in this process, but thanks for suggesting it as a possibility.

Just try putting some in a pot and boil it. Cook some eggs with it or something if you don't like to waste the energy.

winger · Jan 6, 2015

FWIW, I do not do a presoak with Acros and I've never had airbells with Acros. Thomas' suggestion of gases in the RO water might be a good one, even if you let it sit (after all, it's sat since it was processed). I use cheap "distilled" water from Walmart because I have a well and the water is cr@p. But I do remember PE mentioning that chemicals are designed to work with tap water, with the average amount of non-pure stuff.
And Stone - good idea there! I've wished it was possible to use a clear container to develop just to see how the liquid moves around.

Christiaan Phleger · Jan 6, 2015

As stated in the data sheet: one full minute of continuous agitation.

Page 2 http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/NeopanAcros100.pdf
Page 2 http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/Neopan400.pdf

In addition; proper wetting agent/PhotoFlo usage and technique is required.

removedacct1 · Jan 6, 2015

RidingWaves said:
As stated in the data sheet: one full minute of continuous agitation.

Page 2 http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/NeopanAcros100.pdf
Page 2 http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/Neopan400.pdf

In addition; proper wetting agent/PhotoFlo usage and technique is required.

Perhaps you didn't notice that I stated in both post (there was a url link here which no longer exists) and (there was a url link here which no longer exists)that I do a full minute of continuous agitation when the developer first goes in, plus five seconds every minute thereafter. But thanks for once again emphasizing this important point. I see the Fuji data sheet does not mention a wetting agent, however. Just sayin' ;-)

Pat Erson · Jan 6, 2015

summicron1 said:
i've been doing acros 120 in d76 1:1 with no presoak, no nothing, just regular agitation 5 seconds every 30. Never seen this problem.

Maybe something in your water ... especially hard water where you are?

I concur! I'd redo a processing session with distilled water instead of tap water.

L Gebhardt · Jan 6, 2015

I also assume these are air bells. I've had air bells with other films before, but not Acros. But most of my Acros has been done on a Jobo with XTOL.

I'd try different water, or at least remove the air from it by boiling and quickly cooling. I think letting it stand might introduce more air as it will have a chance to dissolve.

Try a roll with continuous agitation.

Sacrificing a sheet and looking at the film in the developer is what let me verify the issue was air bells. In my case they were in Pyrocat HD and mainly formed where my finger prints were on the film.

Good luck.

Trouble with Neopan Acros 100

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