Trouble with 4x5 processing

Colin Corneau · Dec 17, 2007

Charles, I'm not doubting you, but I can only post my experiences based on -- you guessed it -- my experiences.

I was fastidious about agitation, the right type and amount and frequency.

The developer was mixed carefully, and properly made in amounts, dilution, temperature, etc.

Time was bang on.

Everything - and I have streaks that come from uneven development along the edges and interior of the image. I wish it weren't true, but it is...at least for me. Since these boards are for sharing information in order to further a proper education in film shooting, it's important to share this information.

Now, if anyone has a Jobo system for 4x5 to unload...

k_jupiter · Dec 17, 2007

Charles Webb said:
I just want to make a comment about the Yankee 4x5 plastic tanks.

I have used them exclusive for 4x5 black and white, color neg and Ektachrome since they first appeared for sale. In all these years I have never had any sort of developing problem when using them. To be quite frank, I don't think any one else has either. If the dark room is totally dark,
the tanks clean and filled to the proper level there is no way on earth that the tank can contribute to a defect in a negative. In the same period of time I have never found it necessary to presoak any negative before introducing them to the developer. I know it is popular and is said to be the thing to do when processing sheet film. With todays sheet film perhaps it is, but with Super HyPan, XX, Royal Pan,
Gaevert, Ektachrome or any other emulsion I may have used in the past presoaking was not essential to the process. For three days I have pondered how a simple four sided plastic tank could in any way effect the development of sheet film, in my mind those who claim that the Yankee tanks are no good and blame them for poor processing simply haven't a clue of what they are talking about.
My formula for excellent negative or positives is :

Dark room totally dark.

Tanks filled to a point above where the metal cross piece
and spring retainer is located in the hanger

Temperature correct.

Time.

Correct agitation! This is the most important part of developing any type of film. This is what creates even or uneven development not the Tank you are using.
Yankee tanks do not deserve the bum rap your are giving them, your negative problems are caused by only you!

Charlie...................................................

I don't think you got it Charlie.

It's the inversion type daylight tank that gives people fits. If you use only the box/base of it, it's no different than a Kodak rubber tank or a tupperware container.
I have used a Kodak tank system, not my favorite way to process... I keep knocking over my beer in the pitch black, but that IS a reliable way to get good negs once you learn how to process with them.

The Yankee Daylight tanks...

junk.

tim in san jose

Charles Webb · Dec 18, 2007

Guys and Colin,
Perhaps I didn't get it! But I also point out that uneven negatives or streaked negatives are not caused by what tank you use but how you use it. Doesn't mater if you use a Jobo or anything else to process your film
if you do it wrong you will get the same results Colin Corneau achieved. He believes that he was careful "I was fastidious about agitation, the right type and amount and frequency." This is absolutely impossible! as the results plainly show you did not do what you said. Streaks and uneven negatives cannot cause themselves, it is the person doing the developing that is to blame. I have no axe to grind here, but Colin you screwed up
not the tank and some day in the future will realize this fact. You mention "in your experience" well if you truly believe you have actual positive experience you would know better than to blame an inanimate film tank for
for things you your self are doing. I am sorry I butted in, but you were so wrong in some of your statements
that I thought it necessary to point you in a direction that would help you. I hoped that you really wanted to learn, an by telling you what your problem was I also hoped you would research my comments. I do not mean by researching on an internet forum, I mean go to the experts for information rather than other beginners just discovering picture making for themselves. I just wonder how my life of 55 + years as a professional photographer, Teacher of photography and working to achieve my masters rateing matches up with your
"experience"?

Have a nice life, I shant cross your path again!
Charlie........................................................

markbb · Dec 18, 2007

Blimey, someone got out the wrong side of the bed!

Steve, to get back to your query, have you tried good old tray development?

ChuckP · Dec 18, 2007

Charles,
How do you agitate the Yankee tank? When I tried it I moved it back and forth along the long dimension while holding the lid on with my fingers. Got a lot of liquid splashing out. Maybe I was doing it too hard or tank too full.

dslater · Dec 18, 2007

Charles Webb said:
Guys and Colin,
Perhaps I didn't get it! But I also point out that uneven negatives or streaked negatives are not caused by what tank you use but how you use it. Doesn't mater if you use a Jobo or anything else to process your film
if you do it wrong you will get the same results Colin Corneau achieved. He believes that he was careful "I was fastidious about agitation, the right type and amount and frequency." This is absolutely impossible! as the results plainly show you did not do what you said. Streaks and uneven negatives cannot cause themselves, it is the person doing the developing that is to blame. I have no axe to grind here, but Colin you screwed up
not the tank and some day in the future will realize this fact. You mention "in your experience" well if you truly believe you have actual positive experience you would know better than to blame an inanimate film tank for
for things you your self are doing. I am sorry I butted in, but you were so wrong in some of your statements
that I thought it necessary to point you in a direction that would help you. I hoped that you really wanted to learn, an by telling you what your problem was I also hoped you would research my comments. I do not mean by researching on an internet forum, I mean go to the experts for information rather than other beginners just discovering picture making for themselves. I just wonder how my life of 55 + years as a professional photographer, Teacher of photography and working to achieve my masters rateing matches up with your
"experience"?

Have a nice life, I shant cross your path again!
Charlie........................................................

Hey Charles,
Instead of just telling all of us how wrong we are and that it's all our own fault, why don't you explain the correct way to agitate a Yankee Daylight tank? Your statements are pretty strong and you still haven't made it clear as to which tank you're using - have you actually used the daylight tank? If not, you might consider the possibility that internal structures in the tank could cause eddies and currents in the developer that cause pockets of solution that don't move much when agitated.

singram · Dec 18, 2007

Mark,
I am without a room that is completely dark at the moment, so tray development is out. I would like to learn though.

Hey I hope I didn't get a war going. I get streaks with my Yankee tank. A lot of other people do too. I don't get them with my Combi Plan tank, and maybe that is because the inversion agitation as opposed to the slosh slide to side is what prevents the streaks for me.

I also re-read Charlie's post about the Yankee tank he uses. He mentions a metal cross piece and a spring retainer on the hangar. My Yankee tank has all plastic guts, two halves that sleeve together to hold film of different sizes, and a plastic daylight lid. Are we even talking about the same tank here? This sounds like tanks with metal dip and dunk hangars, but I may be wrong.

steve

k_jupiter · Dec 18, 2007

singram said:
Mark,
I am without a room that is completely dark at the moment, so tray development is out. I would like to learn though.

Hey I hope I didn't get a war going. I get streaks with my Yankee tank. A lot of other people do too. I don't get them with my Combi Plan tank, and maybe that is because the inversion agitation as opposed to the slosh slide to side is what prevents the streaks for me.

I also re-read Charlie's post about the Yankee tank he uses. He mentions a metal cross piece and a spring retainer on the hangar. My Yankee tank has all plastic guts, two halves that sleeve together to hold film of different sizes, and a plastic daylight lid. Are we even talking about the same tank here? This sounds like tanks with metal dip and dunk hangars, but I may be wrong.

steve

Don't worry about wars. Charles will cool down. He had a point to make, and to a degree, he is correct. Personal process makes most of the mistakes in this craft. But there are too many stories of crappy development with this tank used as directed to discount your experience.

My advice for a daylight tank is to get the Patterson system 3, tall enough for the negatives you want to develop, make some of those nylon screen tubes, and develop like it was roll film. I am pretty sure you will be happy, and the damn tank doesn't leak.

tim in san jose

freygr · Dec 18, 2007

I have to agree with Charles Webb. As uneven negatives or streaked negatives as most of the time, there was insufficient agitation, operator error. As far as "liquid splashing out" of a Day light tank, get a different tank, as you purchased a price of crap! To me any day light tank were the liquid just pores out during agitation is not a day light tank.

DougGrosjean · Dec 18, 2007

Colin Corneau said:
.... I was fastidious about agitation, the right type and amount and frequency.

The developer was mixed carefully, and properly made in amounts, dilution, temperature, etc.

Time was bang on.

Everything - and I have streaks that come from uneven development along the edges and interior of the image. I wish it weren't true, but it is...at least for me. Since these boards are for sharing information in order to further a proper education in film shooting, it's important to share this information.

Now, if anyone has a Jobo system for 4x5 to unload...

My experience with the Yankee plastic "daylight" tank is exactly the same as the above. I was careful about everything - time, chemistry, temp, agitiation, darkness.

Another poster mentioned that he thinks there are eddy currents created in the tank as the chems are poured into it. I think that's correct. IIRC, the Yankee tank I have, the center column is hollow and conducts the chemistry to the bottom of the tank, where it burbles up through the grates below in a consistent pattern.

Perhaps there's a way to use the Yankee that gets around that, hence some people's good comments on the setup. But I was never able to do so consistently - even though I can tray develop and slosher develop just fine, with perfectly even development of negs and prints.

edebill · Dec 18, 2007

I had very good luck with an HP Combi-Plan T setup. Daylight development, exactly as the instructions said. Yes, it takes 30 seconds to empty, but that's very consistent and I never had any problems because of it.

I've now switched to a Jobo because it's more convenient. However, if you don't want the water bath (I'm doing color now) you can just get the 2500 series tank and a roller base to set it on. That will let you use the rated amounts of chemistry (270mL) instead of the massive amounts needed for inversion processing. B&H had the roller base for $20 or $30.

One thing I've noticed is that on some film (generally b&w, color doesn't show this) you'll see small areas at the edge of the film that don't develop as much with the Jobo. It's where parts of the reel touch the film. I never had a problem like that with the Combi-Plan T. This does not significantly impact the images - it's limited to very near the edge, and I've always either cropped it away or retouched the part that intruded. If was doing contact printing or wet mount scanning it would be problematic.

Trevor Crone · Dec 19, 2007

edebill said:
I had very good luck with an HP Combi-Plan T setup. Daylight development, exactly as the instructions said. Yes, it takes 30 seconds to empty, but that's very consistent and I never had any problems because of it.

edebill,

What developer do you use? I ask this because I had trouble particularly with PMK pyro (and I know others have) when using just the one tank. By the time it took to fill up (using the funnel supplied) I was getting increased density along the bottom edge. That's why I switched to the 2 tank method.

Kind regards,
Trevor.

markbb · Dec 19, 2007

singram said:
Mark,
I am without a room that is completely dark at the moment, so tray development is out. I would like to learn though.

Steve, I understand about not having a dark room. An alternative (so long as you have a decent sized changing bag) is the paterson orbital processor. It was originally meant for processing a peice of 10x8 paper but can handle 4 sheets of 5x4 film - I still use mine when I can't be arsed to use my jobo processor; excellent results and a dammed sight easier to use than the yankee or combi-plan tank, IMHO.

Ps I assume you are referring to B&W development?

Colin Corneau · Dec 20, 2007

Singram, I have the same set-up you do, with the Yankee tank -- all plastic, no metal parts or anything.

I'm a pretty easy-going person -- if I've done something wrong, I have no problems owning up to it and hopefully learning from the experience. But, I was agitating the tank according to the instructions that came with it; I even took the entire film holder with negs in it and raised it out of the developer and dunked it back in, by way of agitation, on one round of sheets. Still, with various attempts, the results were all similarly flawed...all I've ever said is what my results were, not decreeing the Truth From On High or something.

As to Charles Webb, somehow I'll be able to sleep at nights knowing I "shan't cross his path again".

DougGrosjean · Dec 21, 2007

Colin Corneau said:
Singram, I have the same set-up you do, with the Yankee tank -- all plastic, no metal parts or anything.

I'm a pretty easy-going person -- if I've done something wrong, I have no problems owning up to it and hopefully learning from the experience. But, I was agitating the tank according to the instructions that came with it; I even took the entire film holder with negs in it and raised it out of the developer and dunked it back in, by way of agitation, on one round of sheets. Still, with various attempts, the results were all similarly flawed...all I've ever said is what my results were, not decreeing the Truth From On High or something.

Colin,

My methods, experiments, and results were exactly the same as yours, FWIW.

BobNewYork · Jan 1, 2008

I bought a Jobo processor for my 4x5 some time back and started using it for all formats and had two problems: the constant agitation changed the "feel" of the images. (I re-did all my development time tests) and I couldn't use the high dilutions / 'extended' development times I favour because I couldn't get enough chemistry in the tank, (that also severely strained the motor which is designed for a minimal amount of chemistry.) I now use the Jobo 2500 tanks with 4x5 reels and intermittent inversion agitation. (Four inversions per minute.) I suspect that the high dilution and consequent development times, (up to 20 minutes), in addition to the other benefits, reduces the chances of uneven development.

Hope this helps.

Trouble with 4x5 processing

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