Trouble shooting inconsistent development results

seven10 · Oct 8, 2014

Occasionally I have been having issues with over-development, discoloration, or both on a single frame of a 120 roll. I'm not sure exactly what is causing this as I don't have things like this happen when I develop black & white, it seems to only happen with 120 film in c-41 or e-6. I am using a Paterson Multireel 3 tank and do pre-wash my film. Has anyone seen something like this before and what could be the culprit?

pentaxuser · Oct 8, 2014

Can you say what it is that is wrong with this and is it a scan of a neg or scan or a print? You may have gathered already that I really cannot see anything really wrong. There may just be a hint of a red/magenta cast but there may not. It depends on the light that is reflected from underneath the plane.

If the rest of the negs on this film are OK then I cannot see how processing is at fault.

Are there other negs you could show us that have a bigger range of colours and form a larger part of the frame. A picture of mainly sky and a largely one colour object which is the plane may not be the best frame to use to illustrate the problem.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Rudeofus · Oct 8, 2014

pentaxuser, there are clearly visible horizontal cyan streaks between plane and lower frame border. I have had similar streaks with C-41, also only with 120 roll film but never with 35mm film, and these streaks went away for good when I started using a stop bath after the CD step.

If seven10 has similar streaks with E6, he could try using a stop bath after FD. Since CD runs to completion in E6 processing, there is no need for stop bath after E6 CD or any of the later steps. Any B&W stop bath will do, be it Acetic Acid or Citric Acid.

seven10 · Oct 8, 2014

Thanks Rudeofus, I will try using some of the stop bath I have. I never thought of that before. It's odd, but this issue pops up very randomly. The only thing that has been consistent about it is that it seems to happen on frames closer to the center of the reel.

Rudeofus · Oct 8, 2014

BTW there was a similar thread (there was a url link here which no longer exists) a few months ago.

pentaxuser · Oct 8, 2014

Rudeofus, you may well be right but how does the stop bath problem affect only one frame? I cannot work out how a stop bath "washing the whole film" as it were can affect only one frame.

pentaxuser

Rudeofus · Oct 8, 2014

The effects which I got successfully under control by using a stop bath were mostly confined to homogeneous regions on the film. If there was some landscape with blue sky, only the blue sky would show the yellow streaks.

seven10, can you tell us whether the other frames contain similar or different subject matter?

seven10 · Oct 8, 2014

pentaxuser said:
Rudeofus, you may well be right but how does the stop bath problem affect only one frame? I cannot work out how a stop bath "washing the whole film" as it were can affect only one frame.

pentaxuser

I actually suspect the physical design of the Paterson reel could explain why the line is formed and around the same area. I'm not at home right now, otherwise I'd take a picture of the reel, but when the reel is expanded to fit 120 or 220 film some slots in the core of the reel become exposed and I suspect developer is getting trapped or circulated differently through there based on on how I agitate.

seven10 · Oct 8, 2014

Rudeofus said:
The effects which I got successfully under control by using a stop bath were mostly confined to homogeneous regions on the film. If there was some landscape with blue sky, only the blue sky would show the yellow streaks.

seven10, can you tell us whether the other frames contain similar or different subject matter?

The other frames contain some of the same subject matter. I can upload some of my older examples later.

horacekenneth · Oct 8, 2014

sorry can't help at all but cool photo

Athiril · Oct 8, 2014

You're supposed to use a 2 minute wash at the same temperature after first developer in E-6, it continues development weakly.

Rudeofus · Oct 9, 2014

Since I have never seen these streaks with my E6 films, I also go from E6 FD straight to wash. But if streaks turn up, a stop bath is the way to go, even if it costs you 1/4 of a stop in ISO speed.

pentaxuser · Oct 9, 2014

If it were the design of the Paterson reel that caused the problem then wouldn't we see more posts about this?

I have had another look at the original scan and I now wonder if I am seeing a hint of what Rudeofus mentions as the fault because I expect to see a fault based on the OP's post and Rudeofus' comments on where the fault is

If this had been in the gallery I don't think I'd have seen any such fault but that might just be me

Another picture where the fault is more obvious would help. I look forward to another picture

Thanks

pentaxuser

Rudeofus · Oct 9, 2014

pentaxuser said:
If it were the design of the Paterson reel that caused the problem then wouldn't we see more posts about this?

I've had my streaks with Jobo tanks, so it seems to be a universal issue with 120 roll film and Tetenal's instructions, which say "after C-41 CD go straight into BLIX"

Terry Christian · Oct 9, 2014

Maybe a bit more random agitation is needed? I've read here before that motor agitation can cause streaks if not occasionally broken up with a couple of inversions or other sort of randomized agitation here and there.

seven10 · Oct 9, 2014

I think I was maybe not agitating vigorously enough, which could have lead to developer not flowing well enough near the inner section of the reel. I don't think the Paterson reel is at fault, I think it's my technique combined with that reel that amplifies the problem.

I developed a test roll last night that I did agitate more and tried using a stop bath. So far the results look pretty good, but I'll know for sure later when I am able to cut up and scan the roll later today.

Rudeofus · Oct 9, 2014

I can most definitely say that agitation is not the problem, I had these streaks regardless of my agitation regime, and without changing the agitation regime these streaks disappeared when I started using a stop bath between CD and BLIX. I detailed the most likely reason for these streaks (there was a url link here which no longer exists) I linked to previously.

seven10 · Oct 12, 2014

I think the stop bath helped, though I'm going to repeat the test a couple times and also try it when I mix new e-6 chemistry. This is one of the targets I shot from the test roll where I did use a stop bath.

I found one of my earlier slides that shows a similar line to the left side of the frame where the development went awry. I'm hoping that the stop bath step will help eliminate this from happening too.

seven10 · Feb 9, 2015

I am resurrecting my original post. Despite adding a step for a stop after the developer and before blix I am still getting some rolls that have a line of over-development. I'm not sure exactly why this randomly happens though, as soon as pour in the developer I agitate immediately via inversion and I have tried agitating with the twirl stick thing. When the line does show up it's almost always on the 10th frame when shooting 6x6. Any ideas what I should look at next?

Rudeofus · Feb 11, 2015

If this always shows up in frame 10, I would strongly suspect there is something wrong with your camera.

If you come to the conclusion that it must be processing (e.g. because B&W films you processed in the same setup don't show this effect), I can give you some methods to track down the problem. For this you need to separate the steps involved in C-41 processing and make intermediate steps observable. If done correctly, all images can be salvaged after these tests.

First, let's find out whether the BLIX still causes trouble:

Take a roll of normally exposed C-41 film and put it in your tank as you always do
Do the normal color development step as you always do
Optionally use stop bath
Fix the sample with standard B&W rapid fixer

The resulting colors will be way off, because there still is all the developed silver in your film. Nevertheless, this retained silver does not affect the visibility of the streaks you get (or don't get now). If the resulting film doesn't have these streaks, you know it's the BLIX that's causing trouble. Either way, you can now BLIX/wash/STAB the film and get normal negatives, nothing will be lost.

If you see these streaks after the procedure listed above, you could investigate the color developer:

Take a roll of normally exposed C-41 film and put it in your tank as you always do
Develop it with regular B&W developer. There are many threads about how to do this, look them up for proper development parameters.
Use regular stop bath and B&W rapid fixer and inspect the resulting negatives.

You should have a B&W image superimposed over the orange mask. Tell us whether you see streaks. You can salvage the negatives by bleaching them in a rehalogenating bleach (no BLIX!!! ), then running them through the regular C-41 process.

Xmas · Feb 11, 2015

The artifice in last two frames looks like a light leak (or flash of the interior) please could you tell us what camera you were using, and how deep a lens hood.

If you have another 120 camera Id use it instead

If you are agitating by inversion you need to use the minimum amount of liquid to just cover the reel.

seven10 · Feb 11, 2015

Thanks Rudeofus, I will try those proceedures to test my blix.

I can rule out this issue being the camera(s). It has shown up when using my Rollei, Hasselblad, and others. I gave the frame location since it seems to occur around that same place on a 120 roll independent of camera.

When spooling 120 onto a Paterson reel do most people keep pushing it on until the tail has moved past the bearings? I'm wondering if films that have a really curled tail are creating more of an air pocket there, though I don't see this same issue when I develop b&w but I wonder if that's because development times are much longer than c41 or e-6 usually.

Rudeofus · Feb 11, 2015

seven10 said:
When spooling 120 onto a Paterson reel do most people keep pushing it on until the tail has moved past the bearings? I'm wondering if films that have a really curled tail are creating more of an air pocket there, though I don't see this same issue when I develop b&w but I wonder if that's because development times are much longer than c41 or e-6 usually.

The thing you need to avoid at all cost is film touching a surface in such a way that fluid flow over its surface is impeded. Whether your film is past the bearings or just held by them won't matter much. Leaving more than a centimeter of film dangling off the end is A Bad Thing (tm), remember that film becomes quite flexible in 38°C warm, alkaline liquid!

It may help with pinning down the problem if you could find out the following things next time right after you developed 120 roll film (any process):

Which end of your film goes into the spindle first? Higher frame numbers or lower frame numbers?
Is that frame 10 close to the outside?
How much film is left outside the spindle?
If you have these streaks, do they appear on the top or bottom side of your film tank?
There is some sticky tape which pulls the film strip together with the film's backing paper when you advance the frame in your camera. When you feed the film onto the dev tank spindle, where is the part of that sticky tape that is stuck to the film? Where is it after you are done developing?

seven10 · Feb 11, 2015

Should I be wearing gloves when loading reels?

1. Lower frame numbers have always gone in the reel first.
2. Frame 10 is on the 2nd ring after the film is loaded, just barely covered by the last frames and tail.
3. None of the film is outside the reel, just the very tail generally is resting on the bearings or curling slightly over them.
4. No streaks have shown up in the tank.
5. That tape is at the tail of the film after loading the reel and I have carefully been pulling it off entirely.

Rudeofus · Feb 11, 2015

seven10 said:
Should I be wearing gloves when loading reels?
4. No streaks have shown up in the tank.

I haven't worn latex gloves during film spooling for over a year now and never saw ill effects. I do take care, though, that my hands aren't overly sweaty during spooling, which can be difficult in summer.

Sorry, my question 4 wasn't clear. I meant the streaks on your negative strip, are they at the location which was at the bottom of your film tank while you processed it, or near the top?

PS: Is there a chance that the outside end of your film on the spindle somehow touches the second layer during processing? With the film held tightly by these bearings, any elongation at high temperature could have such an effect. In order to test for this, put a processed film onto your spindle, just the way you'd normally wind it up, and immerse it in color developer at 38°C (don't worry, this won't do a thing to your images!). After one or two minutes, go check whether the outer end of the film strip touches or gets very close to the second layer.

Trouble shooting inconsistent development results

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