Trouble lining up the beginning of a roll of 120.

David Brown · Jan 23, 2019

I have been using roll film since the 1960s. 120, 127, 620, 116, et al. Lately, I have been experiencing an unusual occurrence with Ilford Delta films.

(Please, let’s not discuss the relative merits of the Delta films, I just want to know if anyone has had this, SPECIFIC problem. Thanks!)

I have always lined up the arrows on the backing paper very carefully, and never had an issue, until recently. The first frame is very close to the tape, and in fact, on a roll I just shot in a Mamiya 645, the first frame actually was under the tape by about 1mm. This has happened in the Mamiya 645, a TLR, and an RB67 (more than one back), so I know it is not a “camera” issue. The obvious solution is to advance a quarter inch past the arrow – there’s plenty of empty space on the other end of these rolls. However …

Just wondering if I am the only one.

shutterfinger · Jan 23, 2019

Are all the rolls you are having problems with from the same batch? Might be a production error.

mshchem · Jan 23, 2019

I had an issue develop on a Fuji G617. Frame spacing got weird. Sometimes it would be a bit early. Another time frame ran off the end of the roll. It wasn't the brand of film. I increased the tension of the roller, that holds the film against another roller that is wound as you advance the film. Cured the problem. The "counter roller" on these Fuji cameras, seems to me, needs to be advanced, and held in place by the film, for proper registration of the images on the film.

Sounds like you are having this happen with every camera. I would check the backing paper to see if the tape is placed in a different spot. Could be that a batch of film wasn't laid down in the right spot.

Dan Daniel · Jan 23, 2019

Ilford USA is a pretty small operation. Contact them. I don't have specifics in front of me but shouldn't be hard to reach them. See if they can help determine if it's a product flaw.

Do you have the backing papers? Good time to do some measurements. And throw the numbers up here and others can see what they have. For example, with Ilford Delta backing paper, it is ~17.2cm from the start of the film itself (back edge of tape left on paper) to the start arrow. Kodak Tri-X, it is 18.0 cm. Hmmm.... This is not including the leader before the start arrow.

Oh, one roll of each measured, so limited sampling.

David Brown · Jan 24, 2019

As a matter of fact, the North American rep for Ilford lives here in Dallas and I can get in touch with him easily enough. I just wanted to see if the problem was widespread, or if I was seeing something isolated. I don't have any of the backing papers except for the very last roll I did. It is definitely of a different batch than the other rolls, however, I do know that. The batch for this latest one is: 59DTA1C01/03. Expires NOV 2020. Not much to go on.

Like I said, I shall just wind a bit past the arrow and that should solve the problem. There always seems to be anywhere from one to two inches of blank film at the other end of the rolls. I will shoot another roll or two in the next 24 hours.

DWThomas · Jan 24, 2019

A far-out speculation --- wonder if a new supplier reduced the diameter of the center portion of the spool a bit? It wouldn't take much of a diameter change to alter the length taken by the first five or six turns of the spool quite a bit. Although that wouldn't show until a new, smaller spool became the take-up spool. (Did the first one from the new batch number work OK?! )

It is always unsettling when these things that "have been that way for 70 years" suddenly act differently!

Sirius Glass · Jan 24, 2019

When that happens to me with a Hasselblad back, I have my local Hasselblad repairman check out and if necessary adjust the back.

David Brown · Jan 24, 2019

DWThomas said:
It is always unsettling when these things that "have been that way for 70 years" suddenly act differently!

Yeah, there is that ...

pentaxpete · Jan 27, 2019

On my 2002 Hasselblad A12 back there is a different start mark for ILFORD films .

R.Gould · Jan 27, 2019

I don't use Ilford, but with Fomapan in my Microcords and Rolleiflex T I need to start the film jwith the start arrows just before the red dots, or else the final negative is very close to the end of the film, sometimes just cutting of the bottom of the last neg, With my Rolleicord's amd my Bronica start dead on the dots and all is fine,
Richard

David Brown · Jan 27, 2019

pentaxpete said:
On my 2002 Hasselblad A12 back there is a different start mark for ILFORD films .

Is the Ilford mark further along than the other one?

itsdoable · Jan 27, 2019

pentaxpete said:
On my 2002 Hasselblad A12 back there is a different start mark for ILFORD films .

As I recall, Ilford had a spec issue with their spools for a few years, and you had to place the start mark 1/4 turn further ahead - so Hasselblad added a Ilford start mark. Ilford corrected that problem, announced the correction, and Hasselblad stopped including that mark. That was in the early 2000's.

Marco Gilardetti · Jan 29, 2019

R.Gould said:
I don't use Ilford, but with Fomapan in my Microcords and Rolleiflex T I need to start the film jwith the start arrows just before the red dots, or else the final negative is very close to the end of the film, sometimes just cutting of the bottom of the last neg, With my Rolleicord's amd my Bronica start dead on the dots and all is fine,
Richard

Same here. I could never really get consistent results cross-cameras and cross-brands. I end up never remembering on which camera which film has to be loaded a bit forward or a bit backwards and have the first or last picture at the edge of the film. I wish that start arrows and start marks were a bit more standardised.

Wallendo · Jan 29, 2019

I had this happen a few times a couple of years ago with Ilford film where the first image was lost and the last frame was blank. In retrospect, however, a believe it was a loading error on my part as I suspect I misinterpreted the start mark on the Ilford rolls.

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 8, 2019

itsdoable said:
As I recall, Ilford had a spec issue with their spools for a few years, and you had to place the start mark 1/4 turn further ahead - so Hasselblad added a Ilford start mark. Ilford corrected that problem, announced the correction, and Hasselblad stopped including that mark. That was in the early 2000's.

Hasselbad, what a great company chasing film manufacturers quality flaws and making own equipment fit their problem. Then stop doing that assuming all is swell from now on. It does make a lot of sense... not. I suppose when getting a Hassy back you now have to check if it comes with Ilford marker, then check with Ilford if they are back at having quality problems or past it for Hassy purposes, or else end up confused. Well ... confused I am as I openly so state.

Trouble lining up the beginning of a roll of 120.

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