Trouble developing 4x5

Ron789 · Jun 23, 2016

I just developed my first 2 4x5 film sheets ever, without pre-rinse, in trays with constant agitation moving the tray up and down to create flow without touching the film too much. They came out perfectly fine. it was much simpler and easier than I had expected. I developed them one at a time.

markbarendt · Jun 23, 2016

Tobychrome said:
However if the films didn't develop and went into the fixer, then the whole lot would be black?

No. If a film doesn't develop, the film will be clear after fixing.

Wayne · Jun 23, 2016

Tobychrome said:
But then if I only have two sheets like I did before, and leave them for 30 seconds before agitating again, meanwhile the sheets are touching and the developer is becoming exhausted? I cannot understand this because everything seems to contradict.

In my example, you are moving a sheet every 15 seconds with just 2 sheets. Each sheet gets moved every 30 seconds no mater how many sheets you are developing. That's what you should aim for at first, IMO. Developer is always being exhausted as soon as you stop agitation, but some of that is expected and quite OK; the key (in the long run) is to find the compromise between agitation and exhaustion that works for you. There are other ways to accomplish the same thing but for now you just want to keep it simple. You won't get any undeveloped sheets this way.

removed account4 · Jun 23, 2016

Tobychrome said:
I will try it again tonight and see how it goes, could you develop in a changing bag?

don't bother in a changing bag that will be a mess.
just process the unexposed film from the box straight away
to rule out screwy box of film ..
then look at your lens and make sure it closes when you do the shutter
some lenses forget to close.

to put the dark-room in perspective, your room is dark... ( or so it seems )

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 24, 2016

Tobychrome said:
But then if I only have two sheets like I did before, and leave them for 30 seconds before agitating again, meanwhile the sheets are touching and the developer is becoming exhausted? I cannot understand this because everything seems to contradict.
My sheets of film were exposed in camera, they weren't exposed to light at any other time except in the darkroom but I could not see my hand in front of my face even when it was practically in front, the only thing I could see. In the room was the faint outline of the bath, more than a 1.5 meters away. However if the films didn't develop and went into the fixer, then the whole lot would be black?

Can you see the film 'rebate' that is covered by the flanges inside the film holder to hold the film in place? If 'yes' - you have an in-camera exposure problem.
If 'no' and the whole sheet is dark, the film got exposed when it wasn't in the film holder.

markbarendt · Jun 24, 2016

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Can you see the film 'rebate' that is covered by the flanges inside the film holder to hold the film in place? If 'yes' - you have an in-camera exposure problem.
If 'no' and the whole sheet is dark, the film got exposed when it wasn't in the film holder.

Good thought!

Ronald Moravec · Jun 24, 2016

If your speed graphic has a focal plane shutter, it may not be operating properly.

Stray light hitting film in tray. need 100% dark.

If you are going to develop film with stack shuffle, you need the water bath to stop film from sticking together,

I recommend one sheet at a time. One liter in an 8x10 tray and really let it slosh around by raising sides.. Emulsion up only.

Mark your sheet film holders as they may leak and may sure they go into the camera properly. Check bellows for holes and bellows to standard connections with a bare light bulb.

Tobychrome · Jun 24, 2016

Ronald Moravec said:
If your speed graphic has a focal plane shutter, it may not be operating properly.

Stray light hitting film in tray. need 100% dark.

If you are going to develop film with stack shuffle, you need the water bath to stop film from sticking together,

I recommend one sheet at a time. One liter in an 8x10 tray and really let it slosh around by raising sides.. Emulsion up only.

Mark your sheet film holders as they may leak and may sure they go into the camera properly. Check bellows for holes and bellows to standard connections with a bare light bulb.

Okay, so I am using the lens shutter, if I can't make the room 100% Dark, what would be the pros and cons of developing in a changing bag if I was agitating by moving the sheet of film as opposed to rocking the tray?

John Koehrer · Jun 24, 2016

Con: Gonna get wet in there both from spillage and humidity/condensation. I'd do one sheet at a time until you get your problem sorted out.

There has to be some way to block all light not just most. Blankets/towels/foamboard over/in windows. Towels at he bottom of the door, tape the edges of the door.

FWIW a myth(?) on the interweb has someone that had practiced loading film in holders and going through the motions with his eyes closed
his first attempt, he did everything except turn off the lights*.

*Don't do that.

Tobychrome · Jun 24, 2016

Would it damage the bag though?

MattKing · Jun 24, 2016

Tobychrome said:
Would it damage the bag though?

Yes.

Look for a paper safe.

Except the fact that at least some of the sheets were only half black tells me that there is some step in your workflow where the film is going where it isn't supposed to go.

jimjm · Jun 24, 2016

Once you get any chemical residue on the inside of the bag, I would never use it again to load film holders, or load/unload film reels for other formats. You can never be sure it's totally clean and you certainly don't want any chance of chemical residue on unprocessed film.

Tobychrome · Jun 24, 2016

I've seen a box kind of structure, that's a bit like a changing bag but it is a solid box with sleeves for your arms?

MattKing · Jun 24, 2016

Tobychrome said:
I've seen a box kind of structure, that's a bit like a changing bag but it is a solid box with sleeves for your arms?

Or you could get a Mod 54: Dead Link Removed

removed account4 · Jun 24, 2016

TC

a handful of years ago i processed a stack of tmy400 4x5 sheets in my father in law's laundry room, it had a window with frilly curtains
that didn't really block too much of the moonlight. i shuffled the film in a kitty litter tray filled with caffenol c made
with el gringo coffee from the local supermarket with vit c and sodium carbonate from the local pharmacy.
my father in law had a glow in the dark timer on his stopwatch and he told me what the time was as i shuffled the film
for 17 minutes .. the film came out fine ...
a tiny bit of stray light isn't good, no, but a moonlit window is even worse ... if you are totally stressed out
get a mod 54 rack and process the film in a hand tank, it will save you the aggrevation of dealing with a dark room that might not be dark
enough ..

personally i would be more worried that your film is all exposed in the box without you putting it in your camera.
do you have any dektol or print developer ? you can tray shuffle 1 sheet in straight dektol or print developer for 1-2 mins to see if it is clear.
if it is the problem lies elsewhere. ( in the camera, the way you load or unload your film , the way you pull the dark slide ...
LF is fun, isn't it

Tobychrome · Jun 24, 2016

I still have four films to develop, I am thinking about perhaps doing them with the "taco" method, just to see if the problem was in the exposure, or the processing

markbarendt · Jun 25, 2016

Tobychrome said:
I still have four films to develop, I am thinking about perhaps doing them with the "taco" method, just to see if the problem was in the exposure, or the processing

Toby chrome,

I don't know how to make this any more clear:

Clear film is an indicator of developer failure or no exposure.

To make film turn black you must have exposure somewhere before it's developed and fixed.

If your negative is solid black or half solid black after being developed & fixed, your development worked AND your film got exposed everywhere it's turned black.

If your negative shows a normal image after being developed & fixed, your development worked and your camera worked and there was no extraneous exposure.

If your negative is clear after being developed & fixed, either the negative didn't get exposed and or the developer failed.

HiHoSilver · Jun 25, 2016

Hey Toby. 'Sorry to hear of the heartburn. I have a thread last wk where I lost a roll - came out perfectly clear. In my case, I failed to notice an issue w/ mixing a 2-part developer - so it never got developed, but did get fixed. The guys are telling ya right as far as I can tell. I'm sure glad for their help.

Tobychrome · Jun 25, 2016

Okay, so have managed to completely black out the darkroom, and in a few minutes I will try and develop another 4 pictures

Tobychrome · Jun 25, 2016

Okay, so just done a batch of two negatives, they're perfect, I think that I have sorted out the problems related to the first lot that I did. I thank you all very much for your help and I will soon post the results on to my profile for you all to see.

Bill Burk · Jun 25, 2016

This is great to hear! So completely black room was the solution?

John Koehrer · Jun 25, 2016

RE: A darkbox, Pretty easy to make with thin plywood. Fuji made a folding box with MDF base, steel tube corners and
rubberized fabric as in a changing bag. 24" cube, folds to 4"X12"X25", compact but heavy.

chuck94022 · Jun 27, 2016

Bill Burk said:
This is great to hear! So completely black room was the solution?

For all these years we've been misleading the newbies. We shouldn't have called them "dark" rooms, we should have called them "black" rooms. I have lots of dark rooms in my house, but only one of them is dark enough to develop film!

nsurit · Jun 27, 2016

Now that you have sorted out the problem, you may want (as has been suggested by someone else) to look at the Mod54 system. I get less heartburn using it than I do with tray developing. There is a little learning curve however that is true with most things in life.

Trouble developing 4x5

Ron789

markbarendt

Wayne

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Thomas Bertilsson

markbarendt

Ronald Moravec

Tobychrome

John Koehrer

Tobychrome

MattKing

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jimjm

Tobychrome

MattKing

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Tobychrome

markbarendt

HiHoSilver

Tobychrome

Tobychrome

Bill Burk

John Koehrer

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nsurit

Trouble developing 4x5

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