Trouble developing 4x5

Tobychrome · Jun 22, 2016

Hello, so I bought a speed graphic and some arista 100 edu film. I loaded the film in a changing bag in my school darkroom and went out and shot 4 pictures with it. However, when I came to develop them, two pictures came out completely black and the other two had only half of the image developed while the other half was completely black. I am developing in 5x7 trays and I don't know what's wrong with what I am doing, I have never developed 4x5 before and so I was only developing one sheet at a time. If anyone could tell me the proper method of "stacking" the film in a tray of developer and how you prevent all the sheets sinking and sticking together, that would be great.
Thanks

markbarendt · Jun 22, 2016

Completely black negatives indicate exposure problems, as in too much, not developing problems, which would show as clear.

Rick A · Jun 22, 2016

Okay, lets start at the beginning. Did you fully remove the dark slide before making the exposure? Did you pull the dark slide nearest the lens to make the exposures? Did you develop in total dark conditions, NO safe light? I prefer to use developing drums on a motorized base, but when I used to develop in trays, I used 8x10 size (I don't own 5x7 trays).

Tobychrome · Jun 22, 2016

I did remove the full dark slide on the side facing the lens, the room that I used I covered the window and there was only a crack of light in one corner but I shielded where I was working with my body so I doubt it would be from light leaking, the problem is, the entire sheet was black, even the borders which should be clear.

Rick A · Jun 22, 2016

Tobychrome said:
I did remove the full dark slide on the side facing the lens, the room that I used I covered the window and there was only a crack of light in one corner but I shielded where I was working with my body so I doubt it would be from light leaking, the problem is, the entire sheet was black, even the borders which should be clear.

That smacks of "abundant light " , most likely when you were developing. You loaded in a changing bag, exposed properly. Was the shutter closed when you pulled the dark slide, prior to exposure?

gone · Jun 22, 2016

Wait till it's dark next time. You need complete darkness w/ film. If you're printing, you can get away w/ keeping stray light away from the paper, but w/ film you need lights out 100%.

I had to write up a ck list the first time I shot 4x5 because it was so different that 35mm. In addition to making sure that your film is loaded in complete darkness, make sure the right side of the film holder is inserted into the camera, make sure you close the shutter after getting focus on the GG, before you take any pics, confirm that the shutter is working properly, inspect the camera's bellows w/ a bright, small LED light in a closet to see if there's any light leaks, pull the dark slides out in an area that doesn't have direct sun shining into it when you expose the film, carefully and quickly insert the dark slide after taking the shot, develop in complete darkness, etc. The thing is, if any part of the process isn't correct you won't have a photograph.

removed account4 · Jun 22, 2016

hi tobychrome
i hate to suggest you waste a sheet of film
but take a sheet of film, unexposed! and develop it in your developer
put it in water first, for about 1 min, then developer. to shuffle, grab a long edge
and flip the film, so the bottom is the top, push down with your thumb, do it again ..
and again, until the time is up, then stop ( or water bath if you do the ) and fix and wash
examine the film, see if it is totally clear or black. if it is black your problem is your darkroom isn't dark
or your film is somehow getting exposed when you develop it / load / unload it.
do the same development routine with a sheet of exposed film .. in ansel adams "the negative"
it talks about film shuffling, not sure if you have that book but shuffling explanation is worth the price of admission.

if your film is clear ( that test sheet ) that is good .. you want it to be clear. take another sheet, expose it in your camera.
make sure when you remove the dark slide, the shutter is CLOSED + stopped down, and you didn't leave it open after you focused ( happens )
make sure when you pull your dark slide, you don't inadvertantly pull back and let light between the film holder and camera .. straight out or straight up..
process that film the same way as your test sheet. see how it looks. film will not float on the developer it will sink ( always has for me at least )
the rate you flip the film top to bottom &c might prove to be too fast or slow, adjust your development or shuffle rate to make your negatives look good.
more than 1 sheet of film .. i always put in the water bath 1 sheet at a time,or they are a stuck together mess, pry them apart and count them 1 by one ...
more than 1 sheet will take longer to shuffle ... i have shuffled 45-50 sheets at once before, never any issues.
have fun !

john

removed account4 · Jun 22, 2016

you flip bottom to the top constantly and consistently the whole time you develop no 10 seconds a min, it is continuous agitation. if they are stuck together they need to be unstuck and separate otherwise they don't
develop.

Tobychrome · Jun 22, 2016

jnanian said:
hi tobychrome
i hate to suggest you waste a sheet of film
but take a sheet of film, unexposed! and develop it in your developer
put it in water first, for about 1 min, then developer. to shuffle, grab a long edge
and flip the film, so the bottom is the top, push down with your thumb, do it again ..
and again, until the time is up, then stop ( or water bath if you do the ) and fix and wash
examine the film, see if it is totally clear or black. if it is black your problem is your darkroom isn't dark
or your film is somehow getting exposed when you develop it / load / unload it.
do the same development routine with a sheet of exposed film .. in ansel adams "the negative"
it talks about film shuffling, not sure if you have that book but shuffling explanation is worth the price of admission.

if your film is clear ( that test sheet ) that is good .. you want it to be clear. take another sheet, expose it in your camera.
make sure when you remove the dark slide, the shutter is CLOSED + stopped down, and you didn't leave it open after you focused ( happens )
make sure when you pull your dark slide, you don't inadvertantly pull back and let light between the film holder and camera .. straight out or straight up..
process that film the same way as your test sheet. see how it looks. film will not float on the developer it will sink ( always has for me at least )
the rate you flip the film top to bottom &c might prove to be too fast or slow, adjust your development or shuffle rate to make your negatives look good.
more than 1 sheet of film .. i always put in the water bath 1 sheet at a time,or they are a stuck together mess, pry them apart and count them 1 by one ...
more than 1 sheet will take longer to shuffle ... i have shuffled 45-50 sheets at once before, never any issues.
have fun !

john

What would be the purpose of the water bath?, Wouldn't all of the sheets be touching each other and prevent the developer getting to them?

markbarendt · Jun 22, 2016

For the film to turn black when developed it had to be exposed first, it's not a development issue if it's solid black.

removed account4 · Jun 22, 2016

which water bath ?
if the films are stuck together in a stuck together mass nothing will get developed
you need to put the film sheets in the water bath 1 at a time and shuffle them and count them
in the water bath to make sure they are separated. then transfer them to the developer and make sure
they aren't stuck together again. yes they sort of touch eachother in the developer but they aren't stuck together in a clump of film
and you shuffle them which agitates them ... how about taking a bunch of your spoiled film and with the lights on practice shuffling them
in a tray of water, you will see how it all works .

Tobychrome · Jun 22, 2016

jnanian said:
which water bath ?
if the films are stuck together in a stuck together mass nothing will get developed
you need to put the film sheets in the water bath 1 at a time and shuffle them and count them
in the water bath to make sure they are separated. then transfer them to the developer and make sure
they aren't stuck together again. yes they sort of touch eachother in the developer but they aren't stuck together in a clump of film
and you shuffle them which agitates them ... how about taking a bunch of your spoiled film and with the lights on practice shuffling them
in a tray of water, you will see how it all works .

The first water bath, before the developer. I just need to get some things straight. So the first water bath before the development is necessary, I didn't do that when I tried it. When the film is in the developer though, it is okay if it touches? And developer would still get to the film if they are touching?

markbarendt · Jun 22, 2016

The first water bath isn't required but can be helpful. Your films obviously developed or they would be clear.

removed account4 · Jun 22, 2016

some people don't use the first water bath, it isn't completely necessary but i never process wtihout it !
the 1st water bath is the remove the anti halation layer the black dye on the film, it soften the emulsion
and the soft emulsion will absorb the chemistry betterand and it is a great place to unstick and separate the leaves of film
having to unstick stuck film in developer screws up development time, and is a big hassle ... the film is stacked, sort of floating on one another
so developer is doing its thing, agitation = shuffling so the bubbles and developer replenish itself on the sheet of film when they are flipped about.
you will notice the unstuck film will float around the tray too, so you have to keep track of them, sometimes it is like hearding cats if you use a big tray.
if you use your spent/bad/black film in a water tray with the lights on, you will see exactly what i mean.
put them all in at once, and unstick them then shuffle them bottom to top .. and cycle through the stack. it will all make sense when you watch what happens ...
( hopefully )
there are also devices like the mod-54 which you stack the film on and put it in a film reel tank and agitate that way, if tray processing ends up being too much of a pain
that might be an option too...

Tobychrome · Jun 22, 2016

I've found that in the two instances that I have tried, the sheets all seem to sink and sit right on top of each other, in contact with each other. But from what you are describing,it seems as though there should be a slight gap between each sheet?

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 22, 2016

Can you see the parts covered by the things that hold the film inside the holder? Are they clear, and the rest of the film black? If yes, you have a camera exposure problem. If 'no' and the whole negative is black edge to edge, you have a problem with the 'rest of it', maybe film, maybe a not so dark darkroom, or some other weird occurrence.

Bill Burk · Jun 23, 2016

Maybe someone opened your box of film while you weren't looking and ruined them all?

Maybe you didn't use the changing bag right and light got in past your arms?

Try developing a single sheet of film without putting it in the camera at all... Like jnanian suggested.

As for the water bath, I don't use it, it's not required. For the shuffling, Doremus Scudder writes a nice explanation how to do it, maybe he'll join this thread or I can look for a write-up.

The developer in the emulsion is what does the developing, a thin "laminar layer" of fresh developer will exist between the resting shuffled sheets so there is a little fresh developer to diffuse in and out of the gelatin. But not much. It gets exhausted fast. Don't develop emulsion to emulsion (face to face) because then two emulsions will compete for one "laminar layer" of developer and interesting ghost image effects can transfer from one sheet to another. I made that mistake once, accidentally got one sheet upside down. It kind of illustrated for me "how it works" to develop stacks of film. I had a ghost of a step wedge (includes very high exposures so black areas that exhaust developer quickly) on a picture (it wasn't a "good" picture anyway so no loss).

Tobychrome · Jun 23, 2016

It can't be in loading the film, it was initially done in the school darkroom, inside a changing bag so it was Definitley light proof, the second lot that I did that didn't develop properly either was done under several layers of blanket at midnight. So most certain couldn't be done then.
When I develop the sheets, I don't think that enough developer is getting to the film and is causing it not to develop, when I use the stacking method, how do they stick together?

Tobychrome · Jun 23, 2016

Oh, I see, so constant shuffling, for the whole development period, don't stop shuffling?

removed account4 · Jun 23, 2016

nope, unless you are doing some sort of unorthodox semi stand development routine ( which i do not recommend )
continuous shuffling throughout the whole time. when the sheets are separated in the bath there is a cushion of developer
all around above/below them so they are in constant contact and moving around. as you can see some people don't use water bath
for pre-wet, but i find it a step never to miss because unless the sheets are fully submerged and wet, there is risk of putting them in the developer
1 at a time, and they stick together in the developer which is no fun to deal with. to unstick the film you need to use your fingers, and bend the edge a tiny bit to get
a air bleed and then rip the films apart. instead of shuffling the film. much easier to deal with when the timer doesn't run/ and it doesnt' matter if it takes
20 seconds or 2 minutes to unstick the film, they ALWAYS like to stick together ... but to each their own, someone doesn't like or need pre-wet
that is great - 1 less step, one less tray to put the film in by acccident .

good luck getting the kinks out of your process ! i am sure once you learn the ropes it will be a piece of cake.

personally, i think somehow your film is pre-exposed in the box becasue it was opened by accident in room light ... but that is just me.
clear or dim-clear would mean not enough developer &c black is DOA.

bdial · Jun 23, 2016

Yes, you don't stop shuffling.

If your film was completely fogged including the edges that were under the guides in the holder, then the fogging most likely occurred sometime in handling. It could have been loading, unloading or processing. Generally, when you are using a makeshift space, any light is too much.

One good test is whether or not you can see your hand in front of your face after you've been in the dark space for 5 to 10 minutes. If you can, then you have too much light leaking in.

markbarendt · Jun 23, 2016

Tobychrome said:
It can't be in loading the film, it was initially done in the school darkroom, inside a changing bag so it was Definitley light proof, the second lot that I did that didn't develop properly either was done under several layers of blanket at midnight. So most certain couldn't be done then.
When I develop the sheets, I don't think that enough developer is getting to the film and is causing it not to develop, when I use the stacking method, how do they stick together?

That's good.

So if the exposure didn't come in loading or unloading then where did it come from? The camera is the next most likely candidate.

Wayne · Jun 23, 2016

You want to keep the sheets moving in the pre-rinse just to make sure each one is fully wet. But you don't need to agitate constantly in the developer or other solutions unless you have so many sheets that you have to in order to make sure each one is agitated every x seconds, or if your goal is constant agitation.

If you have 2 sheets for example, and want to agitate every 30 seconds (a pretty common agitation regime in trays), you could shuffle 1 sheet then wait 13-15 seconds and do the other, wait 13 seconds, etc ect. But you aren't shuffling in between, unless you really want high contrast. If you have 6 or 8 sheets, then you might need to be constantly shuffling one of them at all times so that each one gets moved every 30 seconds (if your goal is agitate every 30 seconds). So each one is only getting moved every 30 seconds. That way you've agitated the 6 sheets exactly the same as you've agitated the 2 sheets in the first example.

Tobychrome · Jun 23, 2016

But then if I only have two sheets like I did before, and leave them for 30 seconds before agitating again, meanwhile the sheets are touching and the developer is becoming exhausted? I cannot understand this because everything seems to contradict.
My sheets of film were exposed in camera, they weren't exposed to light at any other time except in the darkroom but I could not see my hand in front of my face even when it was practically in front, the only thing I could see. In the room was the faint outline of the bath, more than a 1.5 meters away. However if the films didn't develop and went into the fixer, then the whole lot would be black?

Tobychrome · Jun 23, 2016

I will try it again tonight and see how it goes, could you develop in a changing bag?

Trouble developing 4x5

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