TriX and dust

wintoid · Jun 10, 2009

Edit: I wanted to change the name of this thread, but too late. It should read "TriX and particles"

I've been developing my own black and white film since about 2004, which makes me a relative newcomer compared to most people here. I scan my films, not print, but hopefully that shouldn't have any bearing on the question I need to ask today.

Since 2004, every time I've chosen to use TriX, I have had problems with particles on the film. If I choose another film, I don't have the problem, or at least not to the same extent. I absolutely love TriX, but the particles have caused me to seek out other choices (Neopan, TMY2 and HP5) which perhaps would not be my first choice.

I've decided to bite the bullet, and crack this longstanding problem. I've never read of anyone else having this problem, so it must be surmountable. Here's my workflow:

1) Shoot 35mm TriX at 400
2) Load onto stainless steel reel in stainless steel tank
3) Develop in D76 1:1 mixed with deionised water for 10 mins at 20C
4) Tap water stop bath
5) Fix in a working solution of Ilford Rapid Fixer 1:4 mixed with deionised water which I keep for several weeks
6) Wash using the Ilford method in tap water (I actually do 4 loads of 20 inversions)
7) Final bath in Photoflo 1:200 mixed with deionised water for 30 seconds
8) Hang in a shower cubicle to dry for 2-3 hours, no squeegee
9) Scan
10) Rinse tank, reel, lid, measuring cylinders etc in warm unsoaped water, and set to dry

The particles I get on the film are not visible to the human eye. After testing today, I know I can't shift them with an antistatic brush. I also can't shift them with a rocket blower. Finally I tried a drop of PEC12 on a pec pad, and discovered that wiping the non-emulsion (shiny) side DID clear some particles, but not all. Wiping the emulsion side had no effect.

The scans of my investigation are here http://www.flickr.com/photos/wintoid/sets/72157619544518100/ and if you look at the brick wall on the right hand side (as you look at it) of the hearse, you can clearly see some white dots when viewed at larger sizes.

I'd be very grateful if someone with more experience than me could give me some pointers as to what this problem could be. In an ideal world, I wouldn't get the particles in the first place.

Bruce Watson · Jun 10, 2009

You've already figured out that whatever it is, is added to your film as part of your process, yes? If it were on the film at exposure time you'd be getting black dots in your prints.

The solution is: cleanliness. Seems simple. It's really not simple at all. You are probably looking at very small particles, down below 10 microns say. These can come from all kinds of sources. All you can do is eliminate variables one by one, checking each time, until you find that variable that when changed, your film clears.

First thing to do, is clean your darkroom. Clean the ceiling, walls, all the surfaces, the undersides of shelves, everything. Dust can fall in your graduates and tanks as they dry, so keep them turned over.

Next thing is to use your chemistry one-shot. All of it, including fixer. Seems like overkill, but reuse of fixer can get you metallic silver particles on your film.

Next, eliminate tap water completely and replace it with steam distilled water. Why steam distilled? To get all the particulates out of the water along with the mineral ions. Make the final rinse of your tools and tanks distilled water also.

Somewhere in there you are likely to see a marked drop in your problem. But if not, keep going, because it's not Tri-X that's causing your problem, it's your process. Once your process is under control, you can work with any film you choose with relative safety.

Sirius Glass · Jun 10, 2009

Photo Flo may help. Give it a try. It certainly will not make it worse.

Dust vacuum everything.

Mix the chemicals with hot water in a large bucket, like a paint mixing bucket from a paint store. Make sure the chemicals are thoroughly mixed. Let the chemicals cool before using.

Steve

aparat · Jun 10, 2009

It does seem like microscopic dust. I would look into making or buying a film dryer. I got mine for very little money and it solved my dust problem completely.

SaulB · Jun 10, 2009

If you can't see them with the naked eye, are you sure it's not dust being attracted to the film during the scanning? I scan some of my negatives and they always seem to go in the scanner clean and come out clean, but I end up with little blemishes just like yours. When I print them the prints are very clean.

Are you using a flatbed scanner?

Have you tried getting a loupe and having a look on a light box/window to see if you can see the marks?

Are you sure it's not grain clumping? Try a different developer perhaps?

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 10, 2009

The only thing with your process that sticks out to me as odd is that you're not using a stop bath. Use a stop bath as it neutralizes the developer completely. You can get carryover of components from your developer into the fixer, and although Tri-X is a very robust film, perhaps it's more susceptible to problems like that than the other films you mentioned.
Try it, you have nothing to lose. Kodak Indicator Stop bath or similar should do fine.

- Thomas

fschifano · Jun 10, 2009

I'm really inclined to place the scanner at fault here. I have both flatbed and dedicated 35 mm film scanners. Both are very good a resolving every last bit of dust in the neighborhood. The flatbed scanner isn't used for scanning negatives, but rather, finished prints; and that one is particularly bad. The glass and the print always have dust on them that can't be removed despite my best efforts. The film scanner picks up stuff that my enlarger, because of its diffuse light source, doesn't image at all. Digital ICE won't work with silver based B&W images either, so no help there.

Sal Santamaura · Jun 10, 2009

I'd try again using a 5-micron filter for the tap water steps.

wintoid · Jun 10, 2009

Thank you all for your input. I tried making a very makeshift film dryer out of a hairdryer, a Glenfiddich box and a screwdriver to support the reel. The pattern of particles is definitely different, and possibly there are less. I've uploaded one shot to the same FlickR set. Nearly fried the film on the reel though, so definitely need a cooler hairdryer if I'm going to do that.

I've temporarily run out of TriX now, so it will be a few days before I can test further. Once again, thanks to all who have contributed so far.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 10, 2009

And, consider putting a filter inline so that you don't blow dust all over the film.

Anon Ymous · Jun 10, 2009

wintoid said:
Thank you all for your input. I tried making a very makeshift film dryer out of a hairdryer, a Glenfiddich box and a screwdriver to support the reel. The pattern of particles is definitely different, and possibly there are less. I've uploaded one shot to the same FlickR set. Nearly fried the film on the reel though, so definitely need a cooler hairdryer if I'm going to do that.

I've temporarily run out of TriX now, so it will be a few days before I can test further. Once again, thanks to all who have contributed so far.

Interesting invention, but you need to tell us which kind of Glenfiddich the box had. Seriously speaking, don't you get very curly negs when drying them on the reel?

fschifano · Jun 10, 2009

Geez, I don't don't know about this forced air drying business. Seems to me that it's a lot of effort, with a considerable risk of ruining the film, for not much return. Any dust that gets blown onto the emulsion when wet will be impossible to remove once dry.

BetterSense · Jun 10, 2009

I personally find it impossible to scan 35mm without getting dust. When I scan slides I have to clean the glass with windex and blow the slides off with air between EVERY slide, and I sometimes still get specks. I use a powerful flashlight shined at an oblique angle to see the dust particles; I can literally sit there and watch crap falling onto the glass or the slides as I hold them.

Sirius Glass · Jun 10, 2009

wintoid said:
Thank you all for your input. I tried making a very makeshift film dryer out of a hairdryer, a Glenfiddich box and a screwdriver to support the reel. The pattern of particles is definitely different, and possibly there are less. I've uploaded one shot to the same FlickR set. Nearly fried the film on the reel though, so definitely need a cooler hairdryer if I'm going to do that.

I've temporarily run out of TriX now, so it will be a few days before I can test further. Once again, thanks to all who have contributed so far.

The forced air drying could be the problem. It might be baking the spots into the film.

Either switch to Bombay Sapphire Gin or stop using the hair dryer and dry the film in the shower or bathtub.

Steve

BetterSense · Jun 10, 2009

For some time now I've been using a solution of 18MOhm deionized water, a bit of isopropyl alchohol (maybe 15%) and about 1000:1 photoflo, and I've been happy that my negatives dry free of crud even though I hang them up in the middle of a room and not a drying closet or bathtub or other low-dust environment. Anyone else use alcohol too? What dilution of photoflo do you use with distilled water? I find the recommended 200:1 far too much, and I still get a little bit of soap residue on my negatives sometimes but it wipes right off. I still get suds in the development tank even at 1000:1 with my distilled water.

Anon Ymous · Jun 10, 2009

BetterSense said:
...What dilution of photoflo do you use with distilled water? I find the recommended 200:1 far too much, and I still get a little bit of soap residue on my negatives sometimes but it wipes right off. I still get suds in the development tank even at 1000:1 with my distilled water.

FWIW (about 2c) I pour about 300ml of distilled water at my tank and use just 2 drops of photo-flo. After 30-60'' in that I hang my negs to dry. I make sure my hands are clean and dip my fingers in the solution. I then wipe the film with my index and middle finger. So far, I'm pleased.

Sirius Glass · Jun 10, 2009

After I have used Photo Flo, I hang the film and do not wipe or squeegee the film.

Steve

Hamster · Jun 10, 2009

I use a anti-static wetting agent from adox and hang dry in my bathroom. Everything seems ok despite lots of dust in my place.

clayne · Jun 11, 2009

The fact that this happens to you primarily with Tri-X (and yes it's happened to me before as well [also with NP]) - leads me to believe it's fixer related. Have you tried a 2-bath fixer setup? Still though - I definitely wouldn't rule out the dust at drying stage.

nworth · Jun 11, 2009

The most recent Tri-X seems to shed dust quite readily. I haven't had any problem keeping it clean. Drying the film in a dust free (or reasonably so) environment can be important. Some people have adapted large garment bags as film drying chambers. A big problem is the glass on flatbed scanners. Be sure to clean it just before you scan. Somehow, it seems to attract dust very fast. I usually blow the dust off film just before I scan or enlarge it as well. When you brush or blow the dust off a negative, hold the negative so that the dust can fall on the floor. Otherwise you will just move it around.

Cheryl Jacobs · Jun 11, 2009

If you're hanging your negs in a bathroom, try running the shower with hot water for a few minutes before turning it off and hanging the strip. The steam can help settle any dust particles that might be floating around. Winters in Colorado always make for big dust problems, but running the shower seems to help.

- CJ

like2fiddle · Jun 11, 2009

Interesting... I have same problem with Tri-x 135, but not 120

TriX and dust

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