TriX 400 different base mistery: Purple vs clear

jumanji · Jan 27, 2015

Today I loaded two rolls of TriX 400 120 of two clients in one reel and developed them with Xtol 1+1, stop using water (three changes), two bath fixing using Kodak fixer (hardener), wash, then Hypo clear 1+2 for 10 min, then wash for 45 min. I did pre-soak for 3 min before developing.

It turns out that though they are the same film, they have different bases! One is still slightly purple, and the other one is more clear (a tiny bit grey to my eyes). Both is in-date. Ok, how come???

jumanji · Jan 27, 2015

Sorry for the bad quality picture from my stupid phone. It still shows the difference I believe.

jumanji · Jan 27, 2015

Actually I also processed two more rolls for the client who has the purple-ish TriX. They have the same slightly purple base. There are still 18 rolls to process, and I think they will have that base too.
In the pic, all three are the further, the other more clear TriX is the closer.

gone · Jan 27, 2015

Different batches? Different expiration dates? I don't know about you, but I love the purple! Me, I'd be disappointed to see my Tri-X w/ a clear base after all these years.

brian steinberger · Jan 27, 2015

The Tri-x that I've recently been using has a different looking backing paper. I noticed it looked different from what I was used to. So maybe they made some slight changes lately. I consider a clearer base a good thing.

Sal Santamaura · Jan 27, 2015

This is pure speculation. Perhaps the blue tint, if it's on older product, was Kodak's attempt to increase anti-halation control. Also, perhaps the clear version is on Kodak's new, outsourced acetate base and they lowered costs further by not specifying the tint?

Maybe someone who still has ties to EKCO can exercise their contacts and find out.

Ektagraphic · Jan 27, 2015

brian steinberger said:
The Tri-x that I've recently been using has a different looking backing paper. I noticed it looked different from what I was used to. So maybe they made some slight changes lately. I consider a clearer base a good thing.

Have noticed this as well. It is the same printed design, but the materials used seem different.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 27, 2015

I wouldn't worry about it. It is not harmful to the film, or to the printing afterward. You did nothing wrong.

jumanji · Jan 27, 2015

I dont worry, just curious. Yep, their backing papers are different. The purple's paper is more white while the clear one is a bit grey.
There is also a code on the paper, probably batch code because all purple rolls has this same code KP130206. If so, the purple ones should be the newer/fresher batch.
I also think the purple one react with developer better because its density is more than the clear one (actually I feel it's a bit grey not really clear which might be the sign of fog), based on the density of the frame number on the edge.

Rudeofus · Jan 28, 2015

This has nothing to do with base color, backing paper or whatever. What you see here, is an issue frequently referred to as "TMAX magenta cast", which has shown up on Tri-X for at least a few years. There is even a sticky about this in this very subforum. As Thomas Bertilsson already stated, it is nothing to worry about, but if the magenta cast becomes stronger, you should refix with fresh fixer, then rewash.

Axle · Jan 28, 2015

Sal Santamaura said:
Also, perhaps the clear version is on Kodak's new, outsourced acetate base and they lowered costs further by not specifying the tint?

I don't think they've moved to outsourced acetate yet.

Ektagraphic · Jan 28, 2015

Sal Santamaura said:
This is pure speculation. Perhaps the blue tint, if it's on older product, was Kodak's attempt to increase anti-halation control. Also, perhaps the clear version is on Kodak's new, outsourced acetate base and they lowered costs further by not specifying the tint?

Maybe someone who still has ties to EKCO can exercise their contacts and find out.

I didn't think of that! Perhaps it's about time? Maybe they ran out of what they had stored up?

Kirks518 · Jan 28, 2015

I just developed a roll of this (still drying atm), and I agree with Rufeous. It's a fixing issue. Now why one would should it and not the other in the same tank I'm not sure of, but I'd lay odds that your fixer is deteriorating.

jumanji · Jan 29, 2015

Today I made a fresh 600ml working solution of that expensive Ilford rapid fixer, fixed two rolls for 3 min. After 1 hour washing, there's still lightly purple base. How could that be a fixing issue??

Kirks518 said:
I just developed a roll of this (still drying atm), and I agree with Rufeous. It's a fixing issue. Now why one would should it and not the other in the same tank I'm not sure of, but I'd lay odds that your fixer is deteriorating.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 29, 2015

Kirks518 said:
I just developed a roll of this (still drying atm), and I agree with Rufeous. It's a fixing issue. Now why one would should it and not the other in the same tank I'm not sure of, but I'd lay odds that your fixer is deteriorating.

That doesn't explain why two rolls developed and fixed in the same tank came out different. The fixer used was common to both rolls, as was the entire process. The only difference was the film used.

MattKing · Jan 29, 2015

Where did you source the films?

In days gone by, Kodak had separate manufacturing and distribution channels in different parts of the world. Manufacturing is down to one location, but it wouldn't surprise me if different production "batches" end up being sent to different parts of the world.

As the colour is most likely irrelevant to the quality of your results, I wouldn't worry about it.

Rudeofus · Jan 29, 2015

PE once stated that different batches of film receive slightly different coatings. Sometimes an emulsion turns out more sensitive than it should be and is then tamed with special adjustment layers for consistency. I have no idea whether these adjustment layers are coated as neutral density filters, or whether different colors of the light spectrum are measured and corrected. Either the extra coating, or the variation in the emulsion itself could cause these variations between rolls.

Kodak's own literature states, that a slight magenta hue will not have an adverse effect, therefore jumanji doesn't have to worry about it. It will go away if he leaves the film strips in broad daylight for a few days.

Doremus Scudder · Jan 30, 2015

I recently had problems with retained dye in TMax 400 sheet film (TMY). The color cast was very dark. See this thread for the entire description and photos.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Summary: I needed to give a treatment in an alkaline bath to get rid of the retained dye. If your color cast is being stubborn, you may want to try that as well.

Best,

Doremus

TriX 400 different base mistery: Purple vs clear

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