Tri-X Ortho 4163, What Developer?

I have a partial box of old 4x5 Tri-X Ortho and I'd like to test it with my LF. I think its expiration is 1983. Here I have Kodak BW darkroom book with me and it tells the developer and developing time.

Since the film is rather old, how much more time I should add to the stated develop time? At 70F, the books says to develop 5.5 minutes with D-76.

I also have a big bottle of T-max developer (1:9). Can i use it instead of the D-76? I figure this is just testing. Hope it is ok.

i used to develop this the same exact time as regular tri x...
if it is from 1983 ... i'd over expose it a couple of stops, maybe rate it at 100ish
i wouldn't develop it in tmax developer, unless it is tmaxRS ( you risk getting dichroic fog )
develop it at 68 for whatever they say to develop regular old tri x ...

do you have any dektol ?
it might work very well for this film
1:9 -- 9mins

good luck
john

Expose it at around ASA-100, develop in Xtol Stock, 5.5 minutes at 68F

Get it, I may treat it as ASA 50, or the like since it is rather old. For BW developer, I have the regular T-max concentration, D-76 powder, and 4 fl. oz Rodinal. I've only used T-max developer since most of my films are T-max. The Rodinal appears very old, in its white bottle inside the orange box.

Yes, I do have dektol thought I've not used it. That is for paper.

RedSun said:

Get it, I may treat it as ASA 50, or the like since it is rather old. For BW developer, I have the regular T-max concentration, D-76 powder, and 4 fl. oz Rodinal. I've only used T-max developer since most of my films are T-max. The Rodinal appears very old, in its white bottle inside the orange box.

Yes, I do have dektol thought I've not used it. That is for paper.

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unless it is TMAX RS don't process sheet film in it.
regular NON RS has the potential risk of giving your film a green metalic stain / fog on your film
and the only way remove it is using farmer's reducer, and it is a real pain
using the farmer's reducer it will strip your film of density ...

yes i know dektol is (now) considered a print developer
but for a long long time it was used for FILM and PRINTS
and called a "universal developer"
and it produces very nice negatives.

i use ansco 130 for flm, have been for about 15 year+
and it is also what people consider a paper developer,

if you are up for experimenting and having a little fun + goofing off a little bit
you could do a split process sort of thing ..
i did this a few days ago with 70+ sheets of 1983 tri x i rated it somewhere around 100, maybe less ..

you mix up some CAFFENOL C, the teaspoon recipe is fine ..
8oz water 4tsp cheap, rot gut instant coffee, 4 tsp washing soda, 1/4 tsp vit c ..
(measurements off? don't worry it is a forgiving developer, i don't even measure my ingredients )

mix up your dektol
and add 5cc dektol/8oz of caffenol c

you will dilute your dektol 1:10 and process the film in the dektol for 5 mins.
pour out the dektol + pour in the caffenol and process the film in there for 5 mins
water stop, then fix ...

i do this same routine with all my film nowadays ... but with ansco 130 ( not dektol ) ...
and instead of instant coffee i use home roasted sumatran beans ( robusta )
your film will have a nice density, contrast and not much fog, even for 31 year old film.

some of my results are attached

have fun!
john

ps not sure if tri x ortho is a true orthochromatic film, where it can be developed by inspection with a safelight on
like paper ... if it is, you can use any developer you want, and inspect the film as it is being developed ..

this describes how to do it with regular film
with ortho you might get the treat of using your safe light instead of the green light


http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/devinsp.html

I have four boxes of 4x5 Tri-X Ortho that expired in 1970. After some testing I settled on an exposure index of 25. Below are a couple of shots taken on that film stock a few months ago. The first was developed in HC-110 1:39 in a rotary drum for 9 minutes at 68°F, the second for 6 minutes at 68°F. Good luck with your tests.








Jonathan

jnanian said:

unless it is TMAX RS don't process sheet film in it.
regular NON RS has the potential risk of giving your film a green metalic stain / fog on your film
and the only way remove it is using farmer's reducer, and it is a real pain
using the farmer's reducer it will strip your film of density ...

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Can you tell me more about this? So what is the T-max developer for?

hi redsun

if it doesn't say RS
its for everything BUT sheet film
so rolls of film ( 135/120 &C )
if it says RS it is a different formulation
how different, i have no idea but it is designed
for replenishment/rotary systems, and sheet films
( and you can process roll films in there too so it is for everything ).

i used the NON RS stuff without incident for maybe 50 sheets, 1-shot, tanks+hangers ...
i don't remember the dilutions, just normal-stuff. it was recommended to me
by someone at EK when they used to have a professional services division ..
the sheets looked good but somehow my luck ran out ... and the rest of the box
after i processed the film .. showed this weird greenish metalic stain ...
when i called EK they told me what it was, and that it was the developer that did it
and told me my film was wrecked and there was nothing it could do ... i called a friend
who inturn gave me the name of the owner/founder of sprint systems of photography ( they are about 20mins from me )
paul krott, and he told me to get farmer's reducer ...
i mixed it up,and i put the film back in the hangers, and soaked them in the reducer for 15/20 seconds,
re-fixed them and inspected them and the fog was gone ...

i have nothing but great things to say about sprint chemistry, and the founder &c .. great people !
but i wouldn't wish the fog on anyone ... it is no fun.

i haven't used tmax developer since, and i won't ever use it again !

Yes, Kodak specifically says not to use regular T-max developer for sheet films. RS is fine with sheet film. I do not know why...

Also, I just found my answer:

Here's what I found...

KODAK T-MAX is an excellent and versatile high-energy developer designed specially for Kodak's T-Max films. T-Max gives good contrast and film speed with any film, but it is especially good with T-Max 100 and 400 when used at 75 degree. T-Max developer comes in a liquid stock that is mixed 1:4 for a working solution.

Note: Kodak T-Max developer is not recommended for use with any sheet film. Occasionally dark, blotchy coating called dichroic fog will appear on the emulsion side of your film and can only be removed by vigorously washing the film by hand, which carries the risk of scratching the image. Because roll films don't use the same adhesive coatings as sheet films between the emulsion and the film base, dichroic fog is not a problem when T-Max developer is used with roll film.

KODAK T-MAX RS developer is very similar in quality to T-Max developer except that it produces negatives with slightly more contrast. T-Max RS is formulated to be "self- replenishing". This means that after you mix a one-gallon supply of T-Max RS, you can divide it into two half-gallon bottles. The first bottle is your working solution, and the second bottle can be used to replenish the first without changing the dilution. Kodak recommends replenishing at a rate of 1 1/2 ounces per roll processed. This system is easy to use and has the advantage of making it impossible to over-replenish. When the second half is used up, you can assume that the developer is exhausted and ready to be replaced.

Unlike T-Max developer, T-Max RS developer is recommended for sheet film because it is designed for use in machines and contains buffers that prevent the silver from replating on the surface.

i'm glad you were able to find the info from kodak ..
i have posted the same information i posted for you
(my personal experience and what kodak told me )
but others posted soon after that it wasn't true
NON RS works great for sheet film yadda yadda yadda

===

have fun with that film
it is wonderful stuff karsh ( and others of his vintage )
used were fond of using it to do character portraits of men
( gives old man of the sea ruddy complexion ) be careful using it with women
who aren't using base / pancake type makeup what gives men "character" will
get you a slap in the face from a woman it does make red lipstick
red hair &c look BLACK which is kind of fun ...

john

After several years, finally got time to use my Tri-x Ortho 4x5 film. One film in the holder had light leak (over several years). But others are fine. I set the film speed at 25. Probably 50 is better. Used D-76 stock. I actually like the effect of the Ortho film. Very different from the T-max.

RedSun said:

After several years, finally got time to use my Tri-x Ortho 4x5 film. One film in the holder had light leak (over several years). But others are fine. I set the film speed at 25. Probably 50 is better. Used D-76 stock. I actually like the effect of the Ortho film. Very different from the T-max.

View attachment 239408

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quite nice!!

Peter Schrager said:

quite nice!!

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Ya, even 40-year film still kicking. Not even much fog...

I have just acquired several boxes of Kodak Tri-X Ortho 4163, which came with a 5x4 field camera I just bought. I was beginning to think it wouldn't be of any use but the image above is quite nice. Anyway, I intend to give it a go but I only have Adox Rodinal and 510 Pyro in stock and don't really want to buy anything else until I've familiarised myself with these developers.

Any idea of which to use first? I'll expose the tests at 25 ISO but could do with some guidance on the developing times in a Jobo CPE2.

super_claret said:

I have just acquired several boxes of Kodak Tri-X Ortho 4163, which came with a 5x4 field camera I just bought. I was beginning to think it wouldn't be of any use but the image above is quite nice. Anyway, I intend to give it a go but I only have Adox Rodinal and 510 Pyro in stock and don't really want to buy anything else until I've familiarised myself with these developers.

Any idea of which to use first? I'll expose the tests at 25 ISO but could do with some guidance on the developing times in a Jobo CPE2.

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I'd avoid Rodinal with a fast expired film unless you really want to highlight the grain.

Thanks for your input.

I don't believe it's TriX as we know it. It expired in 1990 and has no film speed on the box. I believe it was intended for line work and is a high contrast film but as RedSun has tried it with some success at 25 ISO, I'll probably try some at 25 ISO and develop in 510 Pyro and see what I get. Would be a shame not to make use of it, as I have a lot of the stuff. I'm also just starting with large format, so it allows me to practice loading, unloading and developing without too much stress if I get things wrong.

super_claret said:

I don't believe it's TriX as we know it. It expired in 1990 and has no film speed on the box.

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It's 320 speed I believe. They're exposing it slower in the discussion above because it's expired.

That’s brilliant, thank you. I searched but could not find anything relating to this film.