Tri-X in HC-110 / using "dilution H" in a small tank

Emil · Jan 31, 2009

Hello,

Thank you for a great forum, so much great info!

I'm a complete beginner in this field, but I'll be developing my first roll of film in a few days, and have been researching online a lot, and taking advice from the people in my local photo store.

At the store they convinced me that Tri-X and HC-110 would be the way to go, especially since I am going to be shooting some musical perfomances in low light, and need to be able to push if needed.

During my research I stumbled upon something called "dilution H" http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/
On this page it also says that I need to use at least 6ml of concentrate per roll. My tank only holds 290ml, and Dilution H for a 290ml tank would only contain 4.5ml of concentrate.

Here is the question; Does that mean I'll never be able to use that dilution in this tank, or will the results be unpredictable, or what?

If this has already been discussed, I am sorry, I couldn't find it anywhere in the forums.

Best wishes,
Emil

David William White · Jan 31, 2009

You might not reach full development, and that would be a shame. Question is, why not just start with dilution B until you've got a good handle on that? Consider also if you are intending to push, you need to extend your times, so why make things extra long with H? Just something to consider. BTW, I really like Tri-X in HC-110, it's a great well-tempered combination.

jim appleyard · Jan 31, 2009

David has a good point. You should also do a test roll of this combo before you go shoot something important.

More info:http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

DWThomas · Jan 31, 2009

I thought the minimum was 3 ml (this is of the "US" syrup) for a roll. I know I've used 4 ml to make 250 ml for a 36 exp 35mm roll in my smallest tank and liked the results.

In a downloaded copy of the Covington info I have here, I see a minimum of 3 ml recommended. (And 9.6 for the "European" version).

EDIT: Hmm - indeed, the site now shows 6 ml. The information I have here I copied from the site in August 2006 (yes, I know he recommends against that) shows 3. So I guess maybe judicious testing is the answer. No doubt one of the hazards of using methods outside the manufacturer's recommendation in the first place.

DaveT

Toffle · Jan 31, 2009

If these are your first rolls, I might suggest sticking with Dilution-B, but there is no reason to avoid the higher dilution. I just skimmed my notes here... in this particular notebook (going back to Feb '07) I've developed three rolls of Tri-X in Dilution-H with quite satisfactory results. On the other hand, for two previous rolls in Dilution-B I note that my development was a little thin.

The main advantage of Dil-H is that you have a much wider margin for error. A few seconds diffrerence at dilution-B can make a much bigger difference in your development.

Let us know what you choose and how it works out for you.

Cheers,

katphood · Jan 31, 2009

+1 on sticking with Dilution B (because the Massive Dev Chart http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.html and other sources have a lot of info on it and not on H) and on using a test roll.

In fact, I'd suggest sacrificing a roll just to get the hang of loading reels in daylight, then with your eyes closed, then in darkness. Cut the roll into three lengths or so to practice with (they might bend and tear with more practice, hence multiple segments). When you are comfortable with the loading part, practice the chemical mixing and developing part with a test roll with pics like those you plan to shoot.

I'm an oaf and had quite a few "interesting" results with my first few rolls. In fact, I still occasionally get "interesting" results.

Lastly, I can't stress enough using consistent temperatures and consistent technique in the darkroom. Don't over agitate. Do things gently. Make sure you grab the beaker with the stop bath after developing, not the fixer (*ahem*). Learn from the mistakes you will certainly make.

ntenny · Jan 31, 2009

Toffle said:
If these are your first rolls, I might suggest sticking with Dilution-B, but there is no reason to avoid the higher dilution. I just skimmed my notes here... in this particular notebook (going back to Feb '07) I've developed three rolls of Tri-X in Dilution-H with quite satisfactory results.

In a little single-35mm tank, though? I think the concern is not whether Dil H will work per se, but whether that small a volume of Dil H will contain enough developing agents to work well.

It sounds like it might not, and given that Dil B is widely used and works well (albeit with widespread agreement that Kodak's published time is wrong), I don't see any reason to take chances.

-NT

Toffle · Jan 31, 2009

ntenny said:
In a little single-35mm tank, though? I think the concern is not whether Dil H will work per se, but whether that small a volume of Dil H will contain enough developing agents to work well.

It sounds like it might not, and given that Dil B is widely used and works well (albeit with widespread agreement that Kodak's published time is wrong), I don't see any reason to take chances.

-NT

k.

DWThomas · Jan 31, 2009

Whoops!

Scratch my earlier remark about having used 4 ml in 250 successfully -- I just found the actual notes and the roll I was thinking of was done in D-76 left over from something else. I have a chart made up for HC-110 and other mixtures hanging in the darkroom and the 4/250 mix was set up to leave a little free space for agitation in my one-135 tank, but apparently I haven't yet done it -- so much for relying on aging memory.

This raises an interesting situation, as the mix I use in the larger tank for a roll of 120 wouldn't be enough to meet the 6 ml requirement for two rolls of 135 either. (Now I know why they make those foot tall tanks!) Both are well within the 3 ml rule I understood to be the norm when the chart was made --- oh well.

In the notes I found, the developing time in D-76 was increased 10% for the 36 exp roll "per a Kodak recommendation," so there's another tidbit.

Sorry for creating (more) confusion,

DaveT

jgcull · Jan 31, 2009

>>>...and given that Dil B is widely used and works well (albeit with widespread agreement that Kodak's published time is wrong...<<<

What would you suggest as a starting time for dilution B? Seems I remember that the times were so short for B with Tri-x, which is why I tried dilution H.

trexx · Jan 31, 2009

Everything is an experiment. If the times are too short for B then H may be the right choice. If not enough concentrate can be used to makeup 290 then make 580 of dil. H . This will have enough of the concentrate to handle one roll, but twice the volume of the tank. Put in half for hald the time, dump and put in the other half for the remainder of the time.

I have done this from time to time and have gotten ok results. I have also done 1/2 for 1/3 the time and the second half for another 1/3. Mix the two spent halves and placed half of that in for the final 1/3 the time.

But if the roll your are wanting to develop is that prize picture of your child's first step use Dil. B. or another developer.

MattKing · Jan 31, 2009

You could try Dilution E

If the tank is 290mm, you could use 1:47 (dilution E) and it will work fine.

I believe the Covington site recommends 5 minutes @ 68F/20C for Dilution E and Tri-X 400.

Matt

johnnywalker · Jan 31, 2009

My notes say that each 20 square inches of film needs at least 1.5 ml of concentrate, but darned if I know where I got that information!

In any case, dilution H would be 5ml of concentrate in 295 ml water to make the 300 ml required.

ntenny · Jan 31, 2009

jgcull said:
>>>...and given that Dil B is widely used and works well (albeit with widespread agreement that Kodak's published time is wrong...<<<

What would you suggest as a starting time for dilution B? Seems I remember that the times were so short for B with Tri-x, which is why I tried dilution H.

PC-TEA has pretty much replaced HC-110 for me (except with old film where I'm worried about fog), so I'm trying to remember what I used to do with Tri-X. Based on what's at Michael Covington's site and the Massive Dev Chart, I'm thinking about 6 minutes---a little longer if I was worried about underexposure---but I don't claim to know what I'm talking about or anything.

-NT

Emil · Feb 1, 2009

Thanks everyone!

So far I get the impression from you that it might work, might not.
I've shot a roll at 400, and one at 1600, those two are going in Dilution B. And for the sake of the experiment I'll shoot another two rolls at 400 and 1600 this week, and develop those in Dil H. I'll post the result, thank you very very much

Emil

gandolfi · Feb 1, 2009

hi Emil - Emil is calling

I have always used Dil B for Tri-x.
400iso: 5,5 - 6 min 20 degreeC
when you push : first dtop: + 30% then +25% fro the nexy ones.. (approx - you'll get the hang on it..)

Write me or come for a visit - I'll show you how..

emilschildt at hotmail.com

(Vrå Højskole)

edge-t · Feb 2, 2009

I develop Tri-X in HC-110 exclusively, pushed it to 3200, 1600, 800 with little problems. Dilution I used is 1:100(3ml to make 300ml) at 27-28 degrees celsius.

1600
http://www.flickr.com/photos/madvesparider/3173440117/
3200
http://www.flickr.com/photos/madvesparider/3156163259/
800
http://www.flickr.com/photos/madvesparider/3204373710/

Mostly, I agitate only the first 10 seconds and leave it alone after that. No reason for me to try other developer yet.

2F/2F · Feb 2, 2009

Kodak states the minimum as 6 mL, but in the same publication, they also state that only 4 mL of this is used up by a roll of 135/120 normally exposed in average lighting conditions, thus can be replenished by adding 4 mL. You will be fine using 4.5 mL in your tank. It won't be exactly dilution H, but it will develop your film. If pulling and/or doing stand development, it is not any problem at all to use significantly less than the manufacturers stated minimums.

For a developing time, take the time for dilution B and double it to get the time for dilution H. Then, since you are using only 3/4 of the amount of syrup that make those times hold true, add 33% to the dilution H time, so that the dilution H time becomes 3/4 of the time you will use. For instance, if 3-3/4 minutes was your time for dilution B, it would be 7-1/2 minutes for dilution H. 7-1/2 is exactly 3/4 of 10, so your starting time is 10 minutes.

Or, you can simply make up "too much" dilution H for your tank, and throw away the unused portion. The ratio will be the same, and you will only be throwing away a little bit of syrup.

Rolleijoe · Feb 2, 2009

Emil said:
Hello,

At the store they convinced me that Tri-X and HC-110 would be the way to go, especially since I am going to be shooting some musical perfomances in low light, and need to be able to push if needed.

During my research I stumbled upon something called "dilution H" http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/
On this page it also says that I need to use at least 6ml of concentrate per roll. My tank only holds 290ml, and Dilution H for a 290ml tank would only contain 4.5ml of concentrate.

Here is the question; Does that mean I'll never be able to use that dilution in this tank, or will the results be unpredictable, or what?

If this has already been discussed, I am sorry, I couldn't find it anywhere in the forums.

Best wishes,
Emil

I use a similar dilution, of 1:50 which is fully 1 US oz HC-110 to 50 US oz of water. This works perfectly for my Patterson tank, and 4x5 daylight tank as well. Trying to deal with ml of thick syrup it too much of a headache.

My time is 10min @ 20˚C with normal agitation.

This doesn't have to be harder than it seems, and no need to bother with dilution-B either. Good luck!

Emil · Apr 24, 2009

I just remembered that I had started this thread long ago, and I never got around to running the tests I said I would. But a few days ago I developed a roll of Ilford FP4 in a 1+100 dilution for 50 mins. That was just 3ml of concentrate. Unfortunately, the roll was taken with a meterless camera, so exposure was all over the place, but it came out with strong contrast and a decent level of detail. I don't think it was underdeveloped.

Emil

Carter john · Apr 24, 2009

One source says 6ml, and another says 3 ml is enough for a 120 roll or a 36 roll. I have used 4 ml to make a 500 cc solution and developed a TriX (EI250) roll of 24 exposures many times with no trouble. Now whether pushing will require more syrup, which I doubt, I have no experience.

Tri-X in HC-110 / using "dilution H" in a small tank

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