Tri-X at 1600 in Rodinal

Last night I developed Tri-X and wanted to push two stops to 1600. Exposures were also @ 1600. I didn't want to develop for 18 minutes at 1+50 so I took a look at the patterns of the same speeds in different dilutions and figured that cutting the time by about 35% (I developed for 11:30 minutes) in 1+25, I would get properly developed negs. They came out quite thin.

Don't know if this is useful info or not, but most of the roll was used for night, handheld photos. I placed the shadow areas on about zones II-III, depending on the amount of detail I wanted to retain. Needless the to say, the lights in all the pictures are developed well (not at dense as I expected), but the shadow areas on the neg are REALLY thin…

Stupid amateur question about developing: would any of you agitate more vigorously the first half of development and less vigorous for the latter half of developing to achieve more shadow detail and limit development in the highlights? Basically, trying to control the extra high contrast a bit while using push processing. For the record, I did not do this, I used my standard technique of agitation, consistently through-out developing.

Film developing is like washing clothes: the more you agitate the more you introduce the film to fresh developer. Keep consistent with your agitation. I use continuous, gentle agitation but you can simply agitate every 30 seconds or even every minute. Best to LIFT the reel out of the tank (and put it right back in) if you do the intermittent agitation.

Of course, if you shoot night scenes you usually WANT low, or even no, shadow detail. But if you placed the shadows on as high as Zone III you obviously wanted a bit of detail. Essentially, you did not develop enough through one or more of the following: too low temp, too little time, too much dilution. One or more of those factors has to be changed. This is not complicated, just like washing clothes is not complicated, as those same factors apply.

When you lust for as high as 1600 with Tri-X, do not expect perfection. However, your dilution is certainly not extreme. Try this: add a bit (but a MEASURABLE, REPEATABLE amount) of sodium carbonate, like maybe one mL of volume to, say, 500mL of diluted developer. Then do a clip test: no need to waste a whole roll: cut off an inch or so and carefully place it into the camera and shoot an accurately exposed frame. Then develop normally, and adjust the amount of carbonate to match the contrast that you want. If you do not have the carbonate you can MAKE some by heating a bit of sodium bicarbonate, baking soda, in a pan: do not heat too much because jets of vapor will pour out and, otherwise, make a mess when heated sufficiently. When no more jets appear, even after stirring, it is now sodium carbonate, anhydrous. BE CAREFUL as that pan will become much hotter than if you are simply boiling water. - David Lyga

Why are you push-developing with Rodinal ? It wasn't intended for that, unless you go for stand.

If you want to control contrast, keep agitation gentle and consistent, especially with Rodinal which is very sensitive to that. I usually leave the last 2-3min of development without agitation to let the shadows/midtones catch up with highlights (highlights start developing first and fastest)

I would suggest getting a compensating developer like the excellent Xtol or Microphen and you would get much more usable negatives even at 1600.

I have to agree. Pushing 400 ISO film and developing in Rodinal is not recommended.

lauffray said:

Why are you push-developing with Rodinal ? It wasn't intended for that, unless you go for stand.

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It certainly wasn't intended for Stand, the lousiest method there is.

I've had nice results pushing Tri-X to 1600 in XTOL. The grain was noticeable, but not as large as I thought it would be.

Dale

lauffray said:

Why are you push-developing with Rodinal ? It wasn't intended for that, unless you go for stand.

Click to expand...

How come? What am I to expect with pushing in Rodinal? Is it just a matter of it being a slower speed developer and adjusting time, or temp? Because I love the grain… I'll wait the the 18 minutes if I have to. It just seems now that 1+50 for 18 min that I'll get similar results to what I got. Perhaps I should try a snip of film in 1+25 for 16-18 min.

All in all, I'm decently happy with the results, thanks to the great shadow detail retention of this film. Just want easier negs to print! Haha

David Lyga said:

When you lust for as high as 1600 with Tri-X, do not expect perfection. However, your dilution is certainly not extreme. Try this: add a bit (but a MEASURABLE, REPEATABLE amount) of sodium carbonate, like maybe one mL of volume to, say, 500mL of diluted developer. Then do a clip test: no need to waste a whole roll: cut off an inch or so and carefully place it into the camera and shoot an accurately exposed frame. Then develop normally, and adjust the amount of carbonate to match the contrast that you want. If you do not have the carbonate you can MAKE some by heating a bit of sodium bicarbonate, baking soda, in a pan: do not heat too much because jets of vapor will pour out and, otherwise, make a mess when heated sufficiently. When no more jets appear, even after stirring, it is now sodium carbonate, anhydrous. BE CAREFUL as that pan will become much hotter than if you are simply boiling water.

Click to expand...

David, let me me understand: You're saying to develop at normal times/temps and adjusting only the amount of sodium carbonate? And you're also suggesting (with my own experimentation) that I will should get about to about 1600 with 1 mL of sodium carbonate per 500 mL? Would it be safe to assume 1/2 mL would yield around 800 speed?

No, 1600 is a stretch for Tri-X, but, unlike others, what I am inferring here is that Rodinal CAN be used as a push developer. Why NOT? (There is no infidelity or heresy at work here for stating so.) Sure, you will get grain, but also acutance.

Rodinal is not going to 'soften' your grain and make a mess out of the actual building blocks of your image, (which is made up of the discrete granular particles) like developers having a lot of sulfite are prone to do. The image will be boldly stated, grainy, (but not to oblivion) and maybe sharper than other developers will deliver. But, alas, it will also be challenged with shadow detail (you wanted something for nothing, right?) '1600' is a mighty challenge for even the revered Tri-X.

What you will get with the carbonate is faster development, but that shadow detail will still be largely lacking. No developer can deliver something that is not in the latent image. Some (Diafine?) can build up contrast and make that achievement plausible, but not really possible. It really cannot deliver other than that latent image. - David Lyga

Diafine

+1 to Diafine - Tri-X negs will come out useable at 1600 no problem. Also you can shoot the rest of the roll at slower speeds if needed and they will all work!

For Tri-X at 1600 in Rodinal, I would try 1+100 dilution and 2hr stand development. Agitate for the first 30s, then another 5 inversions at 1hr. Looks like others recommend against stand for whatever reason, but if you're dead set on pushing 400 speed film 2 stops and using Rodinal to develop, that's where I'd start, particularly if you're looking to control highlights.