Tri-X @ 1600 help!

pstake · Mar 15, 2012

Went to the local recreational area yesterday, warmest day of the year. People everywhere. Got some great shots, using my Yashica FX-2 and Tessar 45, shooting Tri-x at 1600 (wanted fast shutters). I had previously processed Tri-X 1600 in Ilfotec-HC 1+31, with good results. Wanted to try Rodinal. Sharpness/acutance ... and grain is not a concern. I print mostly 5x7.

So I came home, soup-canned the film, pre-rinsed for 3 minutes in 20 degree C, water. Developed in Rodinal 1+50 for 18.5 minutes in 20 degree C. Agitated normally with 4 gentle inversions every minute.

They came out out foggy, with strange exposure lines along the perforations/across the negatives.

Anyone have an idea why this might have happened.

Needless to say, I was bummed.

brian steinberger · Mar 15, 2012

I'm sure there will be better responses than this, BUT all my attempts at Tri-x and Rodinal combination have been horrible. Very foggy as you describe. And also I determined a few years ago that believe it or not, a pre soak for Tri-x actually affected my sharpness I was getting with ID-11, my usual developer. So my recommendation is to stay away from the Tri-x/Rodinal combo, or try again without pre soak. Film may still have high base fogging, that was always my determination. Do you have any other developers on hand? Good developers for pushing Tri-x would be Xtol, DD-x, Tmax developer, and D-76/ID-11 stock. I love Rodinal, but not with Tri-x.

ColdEye · Mar 15, 2012

TriX and Rodinal is my favorite, BUT only using Stand Development for an hour. Try it and you might like it. I don't presoak, and Vigorous agitation during the first minute and on the 30min mark.

pstake · Mar 15, 2012

ColdEye said:
TriX and Rodinal is my favorite, BUT only using Stand Development for an hour. Try it and you might like it. I don't presoak, and Vigorous agitation during the first minute and on the 30min mark.

1+100 ... stand develop for 60 minutes?

I've seen similar recipes elsewhere, from 60 minutes to 150 minutes at 1:100.

Also, what do you mean by vigorous agitation?

Brian ... I have D-76 on hand as well as Ilfotec-HC. But I really wanted to get that 3-D sharpness that you can only get with Rodinal. D-76 1+2 works well, too, with other films. I use that with Arista EDU 200 @ 100 with good results. It cuts back on the solvent action, but the development time would have to be around 30 minutes, to push Tri-X to 1600 of course this is a guess.

Interested to hear more about stand developing in Rodinal.

NB23 · Mar 15, 2012

You're supposed to have comtrasty negs with this dream combo. Trix@1600 in rodinal is very special.

I fault your fixer which might be exhausted. Refix the neg.

brian steinberger · Mar 15, 2012

If you're looking for that 3D effect I would certainly try the stand development. I've used this technique in the past for night time photography and it works great. I never tried it with Tri-x though. You can also use it with D-76 1:3 with an initial agitation pattern of a few minutes then let sit for 30 minutes. Try Rodinal first though, that will give higher adjacency effects which is what you're going for.

NB23 · Mar 15, 2012

And yes, stop the presoak. Too many bad reports. If kodak doesn't recommend it, well, it must be true. Same for stand.

emayoh · Mar 15, 2012

Well the reason Kodak doesn't care about stand development is because stand is designed for one-roll-at-a-time... something unheardof and uncontemplated by commercial-scale operations. Stand development is about using all the chemistry of a (small) fixed volume developing solution on one roll of film. It's not something anyone would normally use for commercial or large-volume projects. Stand worked for Ansel Adams though.

pstake · Mar 15, 2012

brian steinberger said:
If you're looking for that 3D effect I would certainly try the stand development. I've used this technique in the past for night time photography and it works great. I never tried it with Tri-x though. You can also use it with D-76 1:3 with an initial agitation pattern of a few minutes then let sit for 30 minutes. Try Rodinal first though, that will give higher adjacency effects which is what you're going for.

Can anyone point me to a rundown of stand method with rodinal?

I'll be doing 1 roll at a time, maybe two if that's possible. I use 2 reel tanks that hold 650ml for two rolls or 325 for 1 roll.

Do you use only enough solution for 1 roll ? ie. 1+100 325ml?

NB23 I do re-use fixer but this batch was actually brand new, and if anything, I made it a tad strong. I'm going to try re-fixing and see if it helps.

NB23 · Mar 15, 2012

Stand is nit recommended because it is prone to uneven development.

The whole point of shaking is to prevent streaking amd to promote even development.

I really wish this stand development internet craze to stop. It's not really beneficial.

ColdEye · Mar 15, 2012

pstake said:
1+100 ... stand develop for 60 minutes?

I've seen similar recipes elsewhere, from 60 minutes to 150 minutes at 1:100.

Also, what do you mean by vigorous agitation?

Yes, 1:100 for 60 minutes. Before I started using stand development, I read on the net that for my Rodinal it should be 1:80, but for me the the difference is so little that I just went with 1:100. Instead of gentle inversions I shake the tank really hard for 30secs for the first minute, then I do the same routine when on the 30min mark. I process mine in a tank that takes 600ml for 1 roll of 120. But when processing 35mm, I have better results when using 1 35mm roll in 600ml (instead of the 350ml stated on the tank).

EASmithV · Mar 16, 2012

1:100 for 2:15

Rudeofus · Mar 16, 2012

pstake said:
Can anyone point me to a rundown of stand method with rodinal?

df cardwell wrote a (there was a url link here which no longer exists) about stand development in Rodinal.

Michael W · Mar 16, 2012

Rodinal & Tri-X is a good combination. I use it all the time with good results, certainly no fogging. I use regular agitaton, can't be bothered with stand dev.

pstake · Mar 16, 2012

NB23 said:
You're supposed to have comtrasty negs with this dream combo. Trix@1600 in rodinal is very special.

I fault your fixer which might be exhausted. Refix the neg.

Re-fixed the negs this morning before work. They looked a LOT better, dare I say, they looked like they should. Keeping my fingers crossed. Did not have time to inspect them closely, or enlarge one, before I left this morning.

Thanks, NB23!

The first time around, I was in a hurry so I fixed according to the (Arista Odorless liquid) recommended time, which was 2 minutes. I actually fixed for 3.5-4 minutes ... but that was still, apparently, not enough. This morning, I mixed fresh fix, and fixed for another 10 minutes. Then left the negs in a rinse of clean water. I'll hypo clear and hang them to dry at lunch.

pstake · Mar 16, 2012

Michael W said:
Rodinal & Tri-X is a good combination. I use it all the time with good results, certainly no fogging. I use regular agitaton, can't be bothered with stand dev.

This is why I have never explored stand dev.

Do you push to 1600 or beyond? If so, how long do you develop in Rodinal?

NB23 · Mar 16, 2012

Pstake,

Fixing this long is unusual but I don't know that fixer. If it's not a rapud fixer, then 5-10 minutes is the recomendation...

A cloudy negative is always a badly fixed negative. I'm glad I could help

sandermarijn · Mar 16, 2012

I've never seen anything disadvantageous about pre-soaking Tri-x, also not with Rodinal. What would be the problem?

Brian C. Miller · Mar 16, 2012

NB23 said:
Stand is nit recommended because it is prone to uneven development.

The whole point of shaking is to prevent streaking amd to promote even development.

I really wish this stand development internet craze to stop. It's not really beneficial.

Uneven development? Take a look at the attached files. This was done with refrigerator development, ala William Mortensen. I used Fuji Acros 120, in Ilford Ilfosol 3, for five days. Now, do you see uneven development?

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 16, 2012

pstake said:
Re-fixed the negs this morning before work. They looked a LOT better, dare I say, they looked like they should. Keeping my fingers crossed. Did not have time to inspect them closely, or enlarge one, before I left this morning.

Thanks, NB23!

The first time around, I was in a hurry so I fixed according to the (Arista Odorless liquid) recommended time, which was 2 minutes. I actually fixed for 3.5-4 minutes ... but that was still, apparently, not enough. This morning, I mixed fresh fix, and fixed for another 10 minutes. Then left the negs in a rinse of clean water. I'll hypo clear and hang them to dry at lunch.

Lesson learned: Test your fixer before you use it. Save some film leaders that you cut off 35mm films when you spool them up for processing. Dunk them in the fixer before you use it, and make sure it completely clears, within reasonable time, before you fix. If it takes more than 45s to 1m with rapid fixer it's time to replace it. With standard (non-rapid) fixer it's probably more like 2m.

And, some of the most classic photographs you'll ever see were done with Tri-X and Rodinal, and it's more a matter of taste whether you like it or not. It is definitely not, by any stretch of the imagination, a bad combination.

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 16, 2012

Brian C. Miller said:
Uneven development? Take a look at the attached files. This was done with refrigerator development, ala William Mortensen. I used Fuji Acros 120, in Ilford Ilfosol 3, for five days. Now, do you see uneven development?

Do you have any negatives with a smooth tonality surface instead of strong texture, like a blue sky that has some tone in it? That's usually where you can see uneven development.

Some people do standing development all the time, and never face any issues, and others have never ending issues. I was one of the latter ones, with lots of problems with bromide drag. Rodinal and Pyrocat, with different films.
There are many accounts of this occurring, so please don't dismiss it just because you're successful, lucky, or know some trick the rest of us don't have.

Brian C. Miller · Mar 16, 2012

Right off hand, no, I don't have any with large sky areas or similar.

Here's my technique: Dilute Ilfosol 3 normally with cold water. Pour into SS container, give it a martini shake for a little bit, and put it in the fridge. Give it a martini shake in the morning, and a martini shake in the evening.

Mortensen developed the technique for use with nudes. If there was a consistent development failure, I'm sure that he would have abandoned it.

Michael W · Mar 16, 2012

pstake said:
This is why I have never explored stand dev.

Do you push to 1600 or beyond? If so, how long do you develop in Rodinal?

I rate Tri-X at 320 for Rodinal 1:50 13 mins at 20 degrees.
Haven't pushed it but I have seen it done with good results. Pretty sure they used your time of around 18 minutes, so you should be on the right track.
I also presoak with no problems, been doing it for more than 20 years.

NB23 · Mar 16, 2012

Brian C. Miller said:
Uneven development? Take a look at the attached files. This was done with refrigerator development, ala William Mortensen. I used Fuji Acros 120, in Ilford Ilfosol 3, for five days. Now, do you see uneven development?

Of course UNEVEN development. The whole POINT behind shaking a developing tank is to get the MOST EVEN development as possible. It's Scientific.

Now, I can see how a 5 days development might get even development: It's such a long time that each day's Bromide Drag is getting more Drag from the next day's shake that eventually it's so dragged that it becomes unnoticeable, just like splotching black paint on a wall, day after day, makes for a perfectly even Black wall. Eh?

Besides, how exactly do you know when the developer gets exhausted? Maybe it's exhausted after12 hours. Why keep it for 5 days, then? That's so unscientific. Fun but unscientific.

Brian C. Miller · Mar 17, 2012

NB23 said:
Besides, how exactly do you know when the developer gets exhausted? Maybe it's exhausted after12 hours. Why keep it for 5 days, then? That's so unscientific. Fun but unscientific.

YEEEHAAW! It's the old Adams-vs-Mortensen "war!"

Well, NB23, I can only show you what I have that works for me. You want to experiment with it for yourself? Go for it! Or not. I can only post the results. If you can find a flaw in the image that I've posted, please point it out. The refrigerator development isn't something I normally do, as I like to get back my film a lot faster. But I have proven it for myself that it works, and really, that's what counts.

The film was scanned at 3200spi, and the two crops are at 100%. Mind you, the film has more detail than my scanner will resolve. (which is why I prefer my Omega!) I've shown my negatives to a very experienced printer, and he was quite impressed.

Tri-X @ 1600 help!

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