Tray processing... why not make the trays light tight?

jasonjoo · Jul 17, 2008

In nearly all of the articles I read on tray processing, most people list one of the limitations as having to work in the dark. So why don't put just make the tray light tight? Though I still do not have my camera yet (waiting on the Chamonix), I'm trying to get my darkroom (read: bathroom) setup so I can get my feet wet right away.

I was thinking about buying 2 8x10 trays and a larger tray to place them in to have some control over temperatures. I haven't seen any covers or lids for trays, so maybe I'll have to think outside the box and look at kitchenware. Anyways, I was thinking about painting the outsides black and putting a thin layer of rubber coating (or something similar) around the edges of the container and then placing the lid on top. I believe this should create a light tight seal, but what do I know?

Has anyone tried this? Is it feasible?

And before someone even asks, no, I am not afraid of the dark .

Thanks,

Jason

(I do not plan on using the stacking method with the trays. Single sheet per tray.)

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Jul 17, 2008

Three words: Nova Slot Processor.

Dave Miller · Jul 17, 2008

Paterson Orbital Processors and Jobo drums are light tight.

Konical · Jul 17, 2008

Good Afternoon, Jason,

In addition of the suggestions above: A rotating motor base and a color print drum with separators to keep the film sheets from shifting. Cheap, virtually foolproof, minimal chemical amounts; why do all the contortions you're proposing when a similar tried and true method already exists?

Konical

jeroldharter · Jul 17, 2008

You are describing tubes. Try the BTZS tubes or make your own.

Ian Grant · Jul 17, 2008

Michel - I have a Nova 3 slot processor it's not light tight.

I have processed my 10x8 negatives in drums, specialist tubes etc and quite frankly prefer tray development. It's faster, safer - less chance of scratches, and ultimately cheaper - we all have dishes.

Think of the triple boxes for film, give a tray that degree of protection and it'll work fine. It would be great to have a light tight dish, I hate sitting processing in the dark, but using Pyrocat HD at 2:2:100 helps cut the times.

Ian

jasonjoo · Jul 17, 2008

Hey guys,

I should have specified that while a JOBO drum or something similar would be convenient, they sure are pricey! I'm almost certain that I will be starting off with trays. I forgot to mention, but I'll be shooting 4x5 sheets. Also, I'm very new to LF territory. I'm still waiting on my Chamonix to arrive, so feel free to dumb up your explanations and posts a bit

Jerold, I was considering the BTZS tubes... Seems like a cool idea. I'll have to see how much it will cost to pick up a few trays. I'd like to keep the costs as minimal as possible.

Ian, have you tried making a light tight tray/dish of your own? Now that I think about it, if it was as easy as I thought it would be, it would have already been done! I'll probably head over to Freestyle sometime next week to pick up some film and do some experimentation. A few sheets of Arista.EDU Ultra shouldn't cost too much

Jason

JBrunner · Jul 17, 2008

Hey Jason,

You may want to check out something called a Combi plan tank. It will process 6 sheets in the daylight. I paid about 50 bucks for mine. I think new they are like $80 or so.

Some people complain about them leaking and filling slow and such, but if you read and follow the instructions they work ok.

jasonjoo · Jul 17, 2008

Also, about the BTZS tubes, if constant agitation is required, do you compensate for development times by diluting your working solution by a certain amount? With a single roll of 120 film, I agitate constantly for the first 30 seconds and then for 5 seconds after 30 seconds thereafter. I'm sure I would get different results if I was constantly agitation for the entire development time period!

Jason

Ken Nadvornick · Jul 17, 2008

jasonjoo said:
So why don't put just make the tray light tight?
Has anyone tried this? Is it feasible?

I believe someone else here on APUG mentioned using one of those flat-bottomed-with-a-light-tight-lid paper safes (Delta, Doran, etc.) currently on the market for something similar. Stand-processing large format sheets of film with the lights on comes to mind.

I would think both film and paper processing might work nicely using this method.

Ken

jasonjoo · Jul 17, 2008

Hey Jason,

Thanks for the suggestion! The Combi plan tank seems like a good solution. It only takes about 1000mL of solution, so it won't hurt the bank to use my developer as a one stop (not as much as tray processing I presume). But I'm still wondering how often I will be needing to push/pull each sheet of film during development. I've only been shooting roll film for the past 6 months and only needed to push/pull when I deliberately under or over exposed the entire roll.

Bah, I could think about this for a long time and probably not get too far. To live and learn eh?

Thanks guys,

Jason

jasonjoo · Jul 17, 2008

Ken Nadvornick said:
I believe someone else here on APUG mentioned using one of those flat-bottomed-with-a-light-tight-lid paper safes (Delta, Doran, etc.) currently on the market for something similar. Stand-processing large format sheets of film with the lights on comes to mind.

I would think both film and paper processing might work nicely using this method.

Ken

Hey Ken,

I just looked up the Delta paper safe bags and this might be a good solution as well! If I can devise a tray and lid system and place this in the bag, it should provide a light tight home for my sheet film . I could probably reuse the paper safe bags a few times too. Maybe I'll give this a go.

Jason

MattKing · Jul 17, 2008

Ken Nadvornick said:
I believe someone else here on APUG mentioned using one of those flat-bottomed-with-a-light-tight-lid paper safes (Delta, Doran, etc.) currently on the market for something similar. Stand-processing large format sheets of film with the lights on comes to mind.

I would think both film and paper processing might work nicely using this method.

Ken

If memory serves me correctly, I believe PE does this.

Matt

smieglitz · Jul 17, 2008

I use black plastic paper safes to transfer wet collodion plates from the field to a wash source. They are rigid, lightproof trays with lids and are also stackable. They should work fine for developing sheets films.

Joe

gainer · Jul 17, 2008

MattKing said:
If memory serves me correctly, I believe PE does this.

Matt

That fellow Gadget Gainer mentioned it and does use the idea.

JBrunner · Jul 17, 2008

jasonjoo said:
Hey Jason,

Thanks for the suggestion! The Combi plan tank seems like a good solution. It only takes about 1000mL of solution, so it won't hurt the bank to use my developer as a one stop (not as much as tray processing I presume). But I'm still wondering how often I will be needing to push/pull each sheet of film during development. I've only been shooting roll film for the past 6 months and only needed to push/pull when I deliberately under or over exposed the entire roll.

Bah, I could think about this for a long time and probably not get too far. To live and learn eh?

Thanks guys,

Jason

Hi Jason,

I usually shoot enough sheets that it is economical. On occasion when I shot just 1 holder or something, I tray process, or roll it in a handmade btzs tube, depending on my mood.

Trevor Crone · Jul 18, 2008

Another thumbs up for the Combi also the Paterson Orbital, which I use when I just need to process one or two sheets of 5x4. I only use 150 ml of chemitry.

Sadly the orbital is no longer in production but they do pop-up second hand from time to time, that's how I got mine.

jasonjoo · Jul 18, 2008

Thanks all for your suggestions! The paper safe method seems nice for doing one sheet at a time, but I have a feeling I may be developing more than that at once. I'll save my pennies and try my hand at tray processing for the time being.

Jason

Marco B · Jul 18, 2008

jasonjoo said:
Ian, have you tried making a light tight tray/dish of your own? Now that I think about it, if it was as easy as I thought it would be, it would have already been done!

It has been done... (by me ):

http://www.boeringa.demon.nl/menu_technic_paperdryingbox.htm

I have kept coated papers for prolonged periods of time in this box with this lid, without fogging. Just be careful with the foam board (if you decide to use the same stuff), it's fragile and may bend.

Whiteymorange · Jul 18, 2008

What am I missing here? When I tray processed more than one sheet at a time, I had to keep shifting the film, bottom of the pack to top of the pack to provide agitation while in the developer and again in the fixer. How would that be possible in a light-tight tray?

I bought a Beseler drum and rotator on that auction site a while ago for $25 and then picked up a Unicolor drum and another rotator for $3 at an auction for PHSNE. They are still out there to be had and they work great for me - with 300ml or so of chemicals for 4 sheets of 4x5, not 1000. Everyone has his or her favorite method, I know, but, being a "bear of little brain", I'm not quite understanding how the light-tight tray thing would work.

jeroldharter · Jul 18, 2008

I agree that a light tight tray is trying too hard.

With the BTZS tubes, you do give constant agitation ("spin"). You can pay them to give you data based on your own film test (very easy and well worth $49). Or you can just use the published data for most film/developer combos which should suffice until you get more particular. Each tube uses just 60 ml of developer which is minimal. I use TMAX developer diluted 1:9 generally or 1:4 for expanded development. However, fixer usually costs more than developer and I remove my sheets from the tubes to fix in a slosher tray.

I think that the CombiPlan tank would be the easiest way to start and the BTZS tunes would be the obvious place to finish. I have a Jobo CPP-2 that I use for roll film but I gave it up for 4x5 because the tubes are more versatile.

q_x · Jul 18, 2008

Hi there!

DIY light-tihgt processing tray? I've seen flat can pinhole cameras with black rubber pipe to pour in and out the chemicals. This is the first thing and the first way to do this. Don't remember where it was.

Second thing - you can make this on your own with plastic. I have here PE-LD (it is called "foamboard"?) avaliable in 1,25x2,5m sheets 2-20mm thick. You can take it, cut it easily, glue it easily (with a special stinking glue). They use it to cut letters in it or sometimes to glue photos to it (exhibitions), so this is good place to get some scraps or smaller sheets.

The 4x5 tray with cover on the smallest edge should be below 5$ with some painting (if you have the glue and paint)

Cheers

paxette · Jul 18, 2008

Whiteymorange said:
What am I missing here? When I tray processed more than one sheet at a time, I had to keep shifting the film, bottom of the pack to top of the pack to provide agitation while in the developer and again in the fixer. How would that be possible in a light-tight tray?

The Patterson Orbital uses adjustable spacers/pins inside, so film can be loaded side by side rather than stacked. Slosher trays work on the same (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

btw, I did something similar with my easel/tank thing-a-ma-bob that came with the Daylab 300. I can process 2 sheets of 5x7 at a time so if anyone ever comes across one of those gizmo's for cheap it's another alternative that works.

AlanC · Jul 18, 2008

Jason,

Take a 10 x 8 tray and epoxy some plastic rawl plugs or pen tops to the bottom so they stick up like miniature fence posts and divide the tray into four compartments. Place a single sheet of film in each, emulsion side up, then pour in the developer. the whole process including the final wash, can be done without removing the film from the tray. (When you pour liquid out of the tray, suction causes the film to temporarily stick to the bottom of the tray so the film doesn't fall out in the dark)
Agitation is done by gently rocking the tray. The sheets of film stay put but the developer can move freely round the tray.
If you place the tray on a flat board it can be covered by an inverted wooden box to keep the light out, and you agitate by rocking the base board.

I have used the divided tray method for over 20 years and it works like a charm. I've been using the light tight box idea for 3 years since moving into my new darkroom which isn't fully light tight.
Just make sure the box sides are thick wood and they are flat where they contact the base. I put black felt on mine.

Hope this helps.

Alan Clark

Dave Miller · Jul 18, 2008

paxette said:
The Patterson Orbital uses adjustable spacers/pins inside, so film can be loaded side by side rather than stacked. SNIP

as here:
http://www.rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/ps how orbital.html

Tray processing... why not make the trays light tight?

jasonjoo

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