Tray developing vs. daylight tank for 4x5

Chuck_P · Apr 30, 2012

Since I have recently converted a bedroom to a dedicated darkroom I have been contemplating switching to tray development of my 4x5 exposures, currently I use the Comi-Plan, which I really can't complain about. But I wonder, for those who have fair experience with both, which method do you prefer and why? I'm not interested in Jobo processing or any other processor, so no need for that insight, thanks. Is there some general quality of tray development over daylight inversion tank development with 4x5 that I could be missing out on----I've always wondered about constant agitation with tray development too? I want to try this route for information from folks before I may try it. Film costs too much these days with three boxes of film from my latest order (1 TMY $86.50 and 2 TXP $79.95 each) costing $235. Sorry if the question is vague, but who out there processed 4x5 in a daylight tank, then tried trays, and was just wowed by it and never looked back?

Thanks
Chuck

Kevin Caulfield · Apr 30, 2012

I went the other way. I started with trays, but despite the greatest care, I still managed to always get fine scratches. So I changed to the Combiplan and I love it.

Dan Henderson · Apr 30, 2012

My experience is the same as Kevin's. As careful as I tried to be, I managed to scratch the best negatives in every batch. I am a devotee of Yankee tanks. They load easily, fill and dump quickly, and give me nice, evenly developed, scratch free negatives. And I don't have to spend inordinate amounts of time in the dark.

garysamson · Apr 30, 2012

Kevin Caulfield said:
I went the other way. I started with trays, but despite the greatest care, I still managed to always get fine scratches. So I changed to the Combiplan and I love it.

I too have had the same experience. I have two Combiplan tanks so that I can easily and quickly move the film rack from one tank to the other in the dark eliminating the drain and refill routine.

Bill Burk · Apr 30, 2012

Hey Chuck,

I process by tray, having switched from Nikor tank. I get fine scratches despite careful handling but I suppose I could add hardener to the fix. I get to watch the film develop by IR, which is rewarding like watching prints emerge - and I can do N+ developing on-the-fly.

chuck94022 · May 1, 2012

I do daylight development, and would not trade it for tray development. I would consider dip and dunk with a series of combi tanks if I had them, but I only have one. I developed using the Combi for a while, but switched to the Jobo 2509 tank (not with a processor, just doing hand inversions). I like the Jobo tank more than the Combi - I can get chemistry in faster, and am much less likely to spill chemicals on my hands in the process. The Jobo reels are easy enough to load, and I've never had an issue with sheets coming out during processing. I also like using the Jobo washing hose attachment, it washes the film very well.

For developer, I do hand inversion, meaning I typically use 1500 ml of working solution (not a big deal since I usually use HC-110 highly dilute, or Rodinal, or sometimes DD-X 1:9). For stop and fix I use the hand roller so that much less chemistry is required, but of course that means during the fixing I'm doing constant roller agitation. You could of course do hand inversion with more chemistry, sort of six of one, half dozen of the other sort of tradeoff.

Chuck_P · May 1, 2012

I tried the dip-n-dunk method with the Combi-Plan tanks but did not get consistent enough densities across the negative. I changed to using three tanks in a different way. I develop the film with one tank in daylight with inversion agitation, a couple of minutes before the time is up, I turn the room light off, let eyes adjust so I can see the timer, after the last agitation, I remove the lid. When time is up I lift the film holder out of the tank and quickly put it in a second tank , lift and lower the film constantly in the stop bath for 30 seconds, then I transfer the film to the fixer tank, put the fixer lid on and finish normally. Density consistency throughout the negative improved greatly. In this way, I avoid the long fill and drain times, which is really the only dislike I have ever found with the Combi-Plan in terms of usage. The usage I discribe is not at all complicated, although it may sound that way in description.

walbergb · May 1, 2012

After unsuccessfully trying shuffling negatives in a tray, I modified an 8x10 tray by cutting 2x2"x1/8" ABS pipe cut in half (I'm sure 1 1/2" pipe would work just as well) using a miter saw to produce 4x1/8" half rings and gluing them to the bottom of the tray using Superglue to create 4 "chambers."

Cost me nothing but my time and works like a charm. The same tray can be used for each step, and I never handle the negatives. I set out all my chemicals in order on my right including water for a water bath; tray sits in a water jacket (room temperature is too high) in front of me pouring spout at top left; I empty the chemicals to my left: water bath & developer down the drain and the others into the containers I poured them from. 450-500ml of developer ensures that the sheets are covered. I use intermittent agitation: 60 seconds agitation and 10 out of every 60 seconds until the time is up.

steven_e007 · May 1, 2012

I've tried lots of methods, too.

I had a 'Doran' tank - very similar to a 'Yankee' tank. Light proof but not invertible. Absolute RUBBISH! Streaks and uneven development. I just couldn't agitate it enough without sloshing all the developer out.

Next I tried tray development. This works - I didn't find continuous development a problem (probably less edge effects - but who notices in 5 X 4?) BUT! I always scratched the film. One sheet at a time wasn't too bad, but tedious. Multiple sheets I always scratched them. ALWAYS.

Unable to get a decent tank at the right price, I tried slicing up 2 1/4" plastic waste pipe into 5 " lenths. I bundled these into groups of three with tie-wraps and placed them in 10 X 8" colour paper developing tubes. Pop a 5 X 4 in each tube, fill with about 200 ml of developer and roll on the desk. Works perfectly!

Bill Burk · May 1, 2012

When I say I always get scratches, I might mention that these have become part of the aesthetic. They are fine scratches and only occasionally hit critical image areas.

It prevents me from offering my services as a photolab because how would I advertise it? Let me ruin your negatives! I scratch them and get dust and pinholes all the time.

But for my own work, it is something I accept.

I am intrigued by the BTZS tubes, however. They are the "next" thing I was going to try. I believe they can give you an evenly-developed scratch-free result. But I'd have to give up watching the negs develop.

markbarendt · May 1, 2012

Bill Burk said:
When I say I always get scratches, I might mention that these have become part of the aesthetic. They are fine scratches and only occasionally hit critical image areas.

It prevents me from offering my services as a photolab because how would I advertise it? Let me ruin your negatives! I scratch them and get dust and pinholes all the time.

But for my own work, it is something I accept.

I am intrigued by the BTZS tubes, however. They are the "next" thing I was going to try. I believe they can give you an evenly-developed scratch-free result. But I'd have to give up watching the negs develop.

Thats cute.

I use a JOBO 2500 series test tank and scratches aren't and issue but only two sheets at a time. My Nikkor tank though will on occasion give me a scratch if I'm not careful.

Mainecoonmaniac · May 1, 2012

I started with trays souping 4x5 and did OK. I had a few scratches on my negs using trays. I found an old Yankee Agitank that works fine, but takes a huge volume of chemicals. I started shooting 5x7 and started using my Beseler 8x10 print drum with constant agitation and that works well too.

Old-N-Feeble · May 1, 2012

Whatever happened to good old open tanks and film hangers? Plenty of time to contemplate the meaning of life and its complications while sitting alone in total darkness.

Zewrak · May 1, 2012

walbergb said:
After unsuccessfully trying shuffling negatives in a tray, I modified an 8x10 tray by cutting 2x2"x1/8" ABS pipe cut in half (I'm sure 1 1/2" pipe would work just as well) using a miter saw to produce 4x1/8" half rings and gluing them to the bottom of the tray using Superglue to create 4 "chambers."

Pictures, for us that dont use arms and legs to measure. Pretty please with sugar ontop.

Brian C. Miller · May 1, 2012

When I want to develop a bunch of negatives I use my Jobo. I have an expert drum and the 2551/2553 drum with the 2509N reels. I also made a "slosher" tray (link), which holds one 4x5 sheet of film. It's good when I have just one or two holders, or sheets that need individual attention.

steven_e007 · May 1, 2012

Old-N-Feeble said:
Whatever happened to good old open tanks and film hangers? Plenty of time to contemplate the meaning of life and its complications while sitting alone in total darkness.

Nothing wrong with them, it's just that they only come up for sale once per millennium and then with a mega-gazillion figure price tag

I have, however, discovered that you can buy stainless steel wire on ebbeegeebay. Apparently fishermen use it for... something. Also, you can buy stainless steel bulldog clips for office use. Now... snip out the little axle from the clips and slide them onto the stainless steel wire, and...

Well, that is my plan. Just need to find a suitable tank, next.

rjbuzzclick · May 1, 2012

Mainecoonmaniac said:
...and started using my Beseler 8x10 print drum with constant agitation and that works well too.

I use Beseler and Unicolor drums for 4x5 processing. Only 200ml of chemicals for four sheets of film. I just have to be careful as the spouts are not as light tight as my smaller-format inversion tanks. I just dim the room lights a bit during processing and it solves the problem.

walbergb · May 1, 2012

Zewrak said:
Pictures, for us that dont use arms and legs to measure. Pretty please with sugar ontop.

As you wish. The little "dots" are from a glue gun. Keeps the film barely off the bottom. How you get there (i.e., no arms, no legs) doesn't matter as much if the final product works

I failed to mention in the original post that the emulsion side goes UP.

Ken Nadvornick · May 1, 2012

Old-N-Feeble said:
Whatever happened to good old open tanks and film hangers? Plenty of time to contemplate the meaning of life and its complications while sitting alone in total darkness.

Nothing happened to 'em!

I use an Arkay stainless steel processing line. Four one-gallon rectangular stainless tanks (with both floating and regular lids) held inside an Arkay stainless water jacket. The tanks can each hold up to six 8x10 inch hangers. Along with my 8x10s I also have sets of 2-up 5x7 and 4-up 4x5 hangers. The outer water jacket is connected to a Hass Mfg Intellifaucet for precision temerature control. Washing is done in a 16x20 Versalab with the insert removed and replaced by a pair of suspended brass rods with nylon spacers that hold the hangers completely under water.

The entire tank line cost me $85 used, as I recall. Got it from a very nice fellow APUGer years ago. The stainless did require a good acid cleaning (Naval Jelly phosphoric acid). But once cleaned and repassivated, and with hoses and fittings replaced, it all looked brand new. Now I can do up to 24 4x5s per run. That's about the maximum I have room to dry at once.

I love tanks and hangers. And yes, I really, really also enjoy that quiet time in total darkness...

Ken

BetterSense · May 2, 2012

I tried every method and went back to trays. It's the only method that gives me perfectly even development, and if I'm careful I don't get any scratches.

I was on the verge of adding a nitrogen-burst agitation system to my tanks, and that may well be the ultimate, but it's pretty simple to develop film in the same trays I used to develop prints.

dpurdy · May 2, 2012

http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_...001&srccode=cii_17588969&cpncode=31-9303885-2

I use one of these for the developer tray. It is perfect. It holds a liter of developer. it tapers at the bottom to just under the width of film so the film
always stays a half inch above the bottom leaving room for fingers and easy shuffling. I process multiple sheets emulsion down and lift the bottom sheet
clear out of the tray to put it on top and make certain not to drag a corner of a film across the back of another. I usually get perfect film. A scratch is rare.
I have in the past developed 20 sheets at a time with constant agitation but these slower days I only do 10 sheets.
Dennis
I use the same type tray for the LFN.

c6h6o3 · May 2, 2012

CPorter said:
But I wonder, for those who have fair experience with both, which method do you prefer and why?

I prefer tray development because I get good even development with it and I am able to develop by inspection in an open tray more easily. If your shuffling method is correct you will never get scratches.

Chuck_P · May 2, 2012

BetterSense said:
I tried every method and went back to trays. It's the only method that gives me perfectly even development............................

Thanks for all the responses..........

I guess it is this sentiment that interests me the most as I've heard it before in other related posts. I'll simply have to investigate it more.............I wander for those that have the slosher trays and who have also used regular tray development...........have you found when using the slosher tray, which appears to me to be quite convenient and scratch free, that it is as easy as it appears to be?

jeffreyg · May 2, 2012

Kodak 4x5 tanks circa 1980 (they last forever) and film hangers. The only handling is putting the film in the hangers and you can wear gloves for that. The film remains in the hangers through processing, washing and drying. My tanks can hold up to eight hangers. They do require about 56oz. of chemistry to cover the film adequately.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

fotch · May 2, 2012

There is no magic in not getting scratches. Your enemy is only sloppy technique. Regular photo trays and no light leak darkroom is all that is needed. My suggestion is this, rather than avoid this simple process and get a lot of equipment, just give it a try. Sacrifice a sheet and do the first one with the lights on so you can observe what you are doing and then practice with your eyes closed.

Simple a sleeping, good luck.

Tray developing vs. daylight tank for 4x5

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency