Travel to Cuba

Colin Corneau · Feb 27, 2011

Whenever I hear Americans talk about Cuba, I'm always reminded that law and morality aren't synonyms.

jeroldharter · Feb 27, 2011

Colin Corneau said:
Whenever I hear Americans talk about Cuba, I'm always reminded that law and morality aren't synonyms.

Most should recognize the distinction anyway.

onnect17 · Feb 27, 2011

jeroldharter said:
I assume you are talking about de-institutionalization of psychiatric patients involuntarily committed to state hospitals? That had nothing to do with capitalism.

It was more of a civil rights issue. It was hugely successful for the California urban camping industry as it generated huge volumes of homeless, untreated schizophrenics. As a rule, they mingle well with homeless drug addicts and alcoholics. Take an evening stroll through city parks in any of the major California cities to get your fill of "civil rights" in action.

As they say..."damned if you do and damned if you don't".
I can tell you how to save a few souls in California. Get in Hollywood and start checking for drugs and needles. If you're a "star" you are more likely to die for overdose or AIDS that in a car accident.

Vaughn · Feb 27, 2011

jeroldharter said:
I assume you are talking about de-institutionalization of psychiatric patients involuntarily committed to state hospitals? That had nothing to do with capitalism.

It was more of a civil rights issue...

Thank you, upon further research I see you are correct, but I also see the situation is a bit more complicated than is possible to cover here. (such as insufficient funding for out-patient care, and now the problem of tossing the mentally ill in jail which are not funded or trained in helping the mentally ill).

benjiboy · Feb 28, 2011

I can't understand the logic here, if the U.S Government frowns on it's citizens going to Cuba who only threatened the U.S with attack, why do they let them go to Japan ?

Colin Corneau · Feb 28, 2011

It can't be Communism - China bankrolls the U.S. now!

David Lyga · Feb 28, 2011

Steve Smith, shame upon thee.

You ask what threat Cuba is to the stalwart USA? This is the threat: Cuba has the best education system in Latin America and its health care system is also the best and most accessible. (They export doctors to other Latin American countries.)

Those, you rather naive person, are real threats to both US hegemony and the hyperbolic US superiority assumption. - David Lyga

MattKing · Feb 28, 2011

I wonder what the situation would be now if, at the time of the Cuban revolution, Cuba had not seized (without compensation) assets owned by citizens of the USA, and USA corporations?

Now if this doesn't send this thread to the Soap Box, I don't know what will.

JBrunner · Feb 28, 2011

MattKing said:
I wonder what the situation would be now if, at the time of the Cuban revolution, Cuba had not seized (without compensation) assets owned by citizens of the USA, and USA corporations?

Now if this doesn't send this thread to the Soap Box, I don't know what will.

Well that depends on many things. For example, how many folks confuse facts with opinions, and if they do offer opinions how mature they are in doing so. Also it is fun to examine minds that divide any situation into inflexible concepts of extreme right and wrong. So Abrahamic. I don't get enough of it here in utah.

Vaughn · Feb 28, 2011

MattKing said:
I wonder what the situation would be now if, at the time of the Cuban revolution, Cuba had not seized (without compensation) assets owned by citizens of the USA, and USA corporations?

Best case scenerio -- like Costa Rica
Most probable -- like Puerto Rico
Worse case -- like Iraq or Iran while their dictators were still our "friends"
-- or perhaps like Haiti.

JBrunner · Feb 28, 2011

Vaughn said:
Best case scenerio -- like Costa Rica
Most probable -- like Puerto Rico
Worse case -- like Iraq or Iran while their dictators were still our "friends"
-- or perhaps like Haiti.

I think Cuba was and is too culturally vibrant to become a Haiti. I think that they have managed to survive a very repressive government and poorly managed economy. How well they would survive Walmartization would be another matter. Cruisers are reporting that there is some pick-up in free market activity, larger farmers markets, more produce variety available at them etc. so that is good. If the regime falls or opens I hope they have the common sense not to wreck the good parts when they throw off the bad. I'd rather buy my veggies at a farmers market or eat at a "paladar" (sp?) any day.

Marcus S · Feb 28, 2011

Is the US style 'corporate welfare' not a sign of a system flawed?
The reckless financial adventures of the US banking system clearly shows, winnings are privatized and losses socialized.

Socialism has come to the US after all, much to the delight of Mr. Castro!

onnect17 · Feb 28, 2011

Regulate this, regulate that!
The problem with the banks is the government coming to the rescue. Business failure is a normal (and healthy) part of the capitalist system.
GM and Chrysler will keep producing cars with less quality as long as the government is backing them.
Now, extrapolate the same control to a full control of all the business and the result is already known: is called communism, and it sucks!

Vaughn · Feb 28, 2011

Extrapolate zero control of business/industry and one has ecological and economic disaster. That sucks, too.

johnnywalker · Feb 28, 2011

Vaughn said:
Extrapolate zero control of business/industry and one has ecological and economic disaster. That sucks, too.

Exactly right, as has been shown by the US banks and BP oil disasters.

onnect17 · Feb 28, 2011

Vaughn said:
Extrapolate zero control of business/industry and one has ecological and economic disaster. That sucks, too.

Ecological disasters are present even with total government control. Bahia de La Habana is one of best examples the most contaminated bodies of water in the country. Same for the rest of ex socialist block in Europe.

This photo says a lot... (original source --> http://traditionalnotions.blogspot.com/2008/05/reason-number-4572-why-socialism-sucks.html )

Sunrise over Havana. This is a SomeDead Link Removedresearch confirmed that air quality is, indeed, terrible. Although one might find that surprising in a place with Dead Link Removed and pretty much incapable of producing much more than the basic necessities of life for itself.

But, it is a fairly common trend. Industrialized, free market nations do a significantly better job of protecting the environment than poor nations, particularly communist ones. The reasons run the gamut from using wood for cooking fires to the development of environmentally friendly technology. All it takes is one look at Dead Link Removed, Russia or China to see how badly the communist states have treated the air.

Vaughn · Feb 28, 2011

"But, it is a fairly common trend. Industrialized, free market nations do a significantly better job of protecting the environment than poor nations, particularly communist ones. "

Because of the regulations put in place by the governments...such as the EPA regulations, which are pretty lax in many ways due to pressure from the business community..

Colin Corneau · Feb 28, 2011

I've been in Cuba, and it's a far cleaner environment than much of North America. I've also been to China, and the effects of unfettered capitalism (the reality of today's China) speak for themselves, environmentally.

Anyway, I don't mean to rant against the USA but I do hate a bully. And Cuba has been bullied...it's a truly unique place, and as I said the warmth and unique spirit of the people transcend ANY politics. Probably why it's such a special place.

Vaughn · Feb 28, 2011

China is slowly coming to the realization that damaging the environment for short term gain will mean long term losses. This is something the US anti-EPA conservatives (and some moderates) fail to think through. Part of the US problem is the belief that tomorrow we will have the technology to fix what we screw up today -- forgetting that we may not be able to afford to fix it (if we do indeed have the capability to fix it). Lake Mead and Lake Powell will never completely re-fill, the water under Silicon Valley is hopelessly polluted by solvents used in the computer industry, large dead-zones at the mouth of major rivers due to ag and industrial wastes (even before BP's last spill in the Gulf).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12595872

The US would be far better off in the long run by not tapping our own oil resources (and other natural resources) -- but the desire for short term gains by the oil companies are doing the opposite. Economically, is it far better to use the resources of other countries than to use up all of one's own first.

Colin -- you nailed it pretty fair and square. As a Yank, I think you are correct to call us bullies.

I have no idea why this has not yet been moved to the lounge yet! !LOL!

onnect17 · Feb 28, 2011

Colin Corneau said:
I've been in Cuba, and it's a far cleaner environment than much of North America...

Colin,
I don't know much about Canada, visited only a couple of times.
Now, do not assume that Varadero is Cuba. I know Cuba quite well and there's a lot of pollution specially beyond the areas for tourists.

Check http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmcp/Clinics/nepmu2/Documents/cuba.pdf
Quite close to reality.

Colin Corneau · Feb 28, 2011

Hey onnect17
It would be naive to assume it's an earthly paradise, definitely. But, I've also talked to some friends involved in organic farming and the use of widespread pesticides, herbicides, GMO's and other "improvements" are not nearly as widespread there, if they exist at all.
A large part of that is likely due to the embargo and relative poverty...although that depends if you define poverty as the poisoning of your environment. Not every place is as pristine as a tourist beach in Varadero, but I will suggest most places are a heck of a lot closer to that than not!

I think one of the key things I noticed about Cuba was the absence of advertising. What a blessing...no manufactured demand, no gaudy screaming billboards jarring your peace of mind, or any of the social ills that come from ramming consumerism down peoples' throats forcibly. There's happiness that comes from material security, and then there's happiness that comes from sources other than that...Cubans have much more of the latter than we do.

onnect17 · Feb 28, 2011

The Cuban government/ Partido Comunista de Cuba has something called DOR (Department of Revolutionary Orientation). This department is the one dealing with all the propaganda associated with the revolution so they use pretty much 99.9% of the billboards and walls. There's a lot of propaganda, just not McDonald or Nike, but communist propaganda and even in your nose, if not familiar with it, you don't see it.
BTW, the worst amount of billboards I seen in the USA is driving I-75 in south Georgia. Absolutely disgusting.

The best beaches in Cuba, IMHO, are off-limit to the typical tourist. The north coast has almost two thousand keys and most can only be reached by boat. Some have continuous beaches longer than 40km (Varadero have only 20km and many parts with rocks). Not sign of humans, totally untouched and beautiful.

I could say I miss the "Cuban Happiness" but most of my friends from college also left the country. I used to count who made it out. Now we talk if anyone still there.

Steve Smith · Mar 1, 2011

Vaughn said:
The US would be far better off in the long run by not tapping our own oil resources (and other natural resources) -- but the desire for short term gains by the oil companies are doing the opposite. Economically, is it far better to use the resources of other countries than to use up all of one's own first.

That's quite a selfish view.

Steve.

Vaughn · Mar 1, 2011

Steve Smith said:
That's quite a selfish view.

Steve.

Quite, but most "economical" for any particular country who practices that policy in the long run. China is catching on to this strategy, building steel mills in Brazil and having Brazilian ore refined and shipped directly to China, thus avoiding the social and environmental costs of mining and refining (and tossing that onto a willing Brazil) and slowing down the need for mining their own resources.

The worst thing a country can do economically is to extract ones own resources and sell them to another country...basically selling for a dollar which one will eventually have to buy for 10 dollars down the road. Canada seems to be falling for this trap by selling oil (and shale oil) and natural gas to the US.

It may be selfish, but if most countries would make buying rare resources from other countries a policy and saving their own, there would less mining/resources available, a rise in resource prices, less environmental damage, and perhaps less of the endless growth (which few organisms do naturally except cancer cells) that is killing the world. Not that I see it happening...too much money to be made! A pipe dream, really.

The economic system devised at the start of the industrial age and a time of rapid growth sadly is very poor at self-regulating for long-term survival.

Travel to Cuba

Colin Corneau

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onnect17

Vaughn

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Colin Corneau

David Lyga

MattKing

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