Totally removing halation dye (staining developers)

Alan9940 · Apr 23, 2022

I've been having an on-going issue with small patches of anti-halation dye remaining on my film after processing. I'm processing 4x5 Foma 100 in a B's reel using 510-Pyro. I've evolved to 3 pre-rinses (water runs out clear after third rinse), two 1 min "stop" rinses, followed by 5 mins in fresh alkaline fixer. Film is washed for 10 - 20 mins, but if the halation patches are there it seems to no amount of washing will totally remove them. I was treating them for about 30 secs in homemade HCA which does remove all traces of the dye, but I read somewhere that the clearing agent is bad for stained negatives. Thoughts?

Thank you.

Paul Howell · Apr 23, 2022

Not sure why a clearing agent would have any impact on a fixed negative, maybe some sort of acid bath, I know that an acid stop is not recommended for a staining agent. Interested to hear from others, I use Perma Wash before final wash with all films and FB papers.

Then a random thought, what using a clearing agent before development? If no developing agents in the clearing agent should remove the dyes and no effect on the negative if the residual is rinsed away??

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 23, 2022

To be clear, are your three pre-rinses before development? If so, that should remove AN dyes. For some films, I soak them in tempered water for 3 minutes with gentle agitation every thirty seconds. TMY ALWAYS gets a pre-rinse. Ilford films, none.

Paul Howell · Apr 23, 2022

I don't soak TMX, mine is always clear after Perma Wash. As a rule I don't prewash film unless called for in the data sheet, last was Bergger Panco 400, a long soak.

Alan9940 · Apr 23, 2022

Paul Howell said:
Not sure why a clearing agent would have any impact on a fixed negative, maybe some sort of acid bath, I know that an acid stop is not recommended for a staining agent. Interested to hear from others, I use Perma Wash before final wash with all films and FB papers.

Then a random thought, what using a clearing agent before development? If no developing agents in the clearing agent should remove the dyes and no effect on the negative if the residual is rinsed away??

I've read that the higher sodium sulfite content inherent in any hypo clear can strip the stain somewhat. No idea if this is actually true. I've been happily using hypo clear on my stained negatives for a while now without giving it a bit of thought, but then I read that it's not recommended with any staining type developer formula. It's all a bit confusing because I've also read that standard fixer can be used which is acetic and contains sodium sulfite.

Alan9940 · Apr 23, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
To be clear, are your three pre-rinses before development? If so, that should remove AN dyes. For some films, I soak them in tempered water for 3 minutes with gentle agitation every thirty seconds. TMY ALWAYS gets a pre-rinse. Ilford films, none.

Yes, before development. I think the issue is the B's reel because the film is inserted with quite a bend which causes the film back to be plastered against the reel. I don't think the pre-wash is getting to all areas of the film. As much as I like the B's reel, I will probably try a tank I have patterned after the Nikkor 4x5 tank which allows much greater flow around all surfaces of the film.

Rick A · Apr 23, 2022

Foma/EDU Ultra 100 is my main film. If the back is touching something and the AH layer isn't fully removed, put the film in a tray of fixer and it should disappear in a minute or two. Then re wash and dry. I process rotary with a three minute pre wash then develop for the recommended time for PMK. I never have issues with dye remaining on my sheets. I did have an issue with it when I used the "taco method" and dye would be visible where the bands were, but re fixing in a tray removed the stripes.

Paul Howell · Apr 23, 2022

As I use hangers, likely the reason I have not had issues with 4X5 Foma 400 or 200.

NB23 · Apr 23, 2022

What does a pre-rinse do that a post-rinse won’t? It’s not like the developer will cement the dyes into the film...

Patrick Robert James · Apr 23, 2022

You could try extending your fix. Shouldn't do any harm.

Alan9940 · Apr 23, 2022

NB23 said:
What does a pre-rinse do that a post-rinse won’t? It’s not like the developer will cement the dyes into the film...

No idea. But, I can tell ya that no amount of washing post-development removed the few spots.

250swb · Apr 24, 2022

Alan9940 said:
I've read that the higher sodium sulfite content inherent in any hypo clear can strip the stain somewhat. No idea if this is actually true. I've been happily using hypo clear on my stained negatives for a while now without giving it a bit of thought, but then I read that it's not recommended with any staining type developer formula. It's all a bit confusing because I've also read that standard fixer can be used which is acetic and contains sodium sulfite.

If you've been using any stop bath (other than a water rinse) that is most probably your problem. I think the pre-wash is a red herring (and down to personal choice) and your final wash sounds good enough.

grain elevator · Apr 24, 2022

I suspect that generally, prewash is useless, but if you're worried about your stain, why not add sulfite/hypo clear to your prewash?

AgX · Apr 24, 2022

grain elevator said:
I suspect that generally, prewash is useless, but if you're worried about your stain, why not add sulfite/hypo clear to your prewash?

In Germany a prewash was unknown in pre-internet times, except for Jobo advising such for b&w in their rotary tanks, also Agfa advises such in the rare case of rewind-processing.

NB23 · Apr 24, 2022

Alan9940 said:
No idea. But, I can tell ya that no amount of washing post-development removed the few spots.

No amount of prewashing will remove them. Fix will remove.

pentaxuser · Apr 24, 2022

NB23 said:
No amount of prewashing will remove them. Fix will remove.

The OP has already used fix and the spots are still there so what does he now do with fix that will remove these spots?

Alan your idea in #7 looked to be potentially fruitful in terms of solving your problem. I take it that you haven't been able to try it yet?

What would worry me if it were my problem is why several others of us including some very experienced users of pyrocat HD have not experienced your issue doing exactly what you did with the 3 pre-washes without success. Your idea in #7 as to the possible cause does, on the other hand, seem to be (a) reconcilable with your problem and (b) doesn't involve doing anything that some suggest will work and others are, shall we say, sceptical about

Your #7 sounds like the best way forward to me

pentaxuser

Alan9940 · Apr 24, 2022

250swb said:
If you've been using any stop bath (other than a water rinse) that is most probably your problem. I think the pre-wash is a red herring (and down to personal choice) and your final wash sounds good enough.

Water stop.

Alan9940 · Apr 24, 2022

pentaxuser said:
The OP has already used fix and the spots are still there so what does he now do with fix that will remove these spots?

Alan your idea in #7 looked to be potentially fruitful in terms of solving your problem. I take it that you haven't been able to try it yet?

What would worry me if it were my problem is why several others of us including some very experienced users of pyrocat HD have not experienced your issue doing exactly what you did with the 3 pre-washes without success. Your idea in #7 as to the possible cause does, on the other hand, seem to be (a) reconcilable with your problem and (b) doesn't involve doing anything that some suggest will work and others are, shall we say, sceptical about

Your #7 sounds like the best way forward to me

pentaxuser

I have not tried re-fixing them. On the last batch, I dipped them in hypo clear for about 30 secs and the spots quickly disappeared. After thinking about it for a few days, it has occurred to me that I don't remember having this issue until I started using an alkaline fix. Therefore, for the next batch I'm going to try my 'ole standby of F-24 and see how that works. Even Gorden Hutchings uses (or used to use) this formula with his PMK negs.

Doremus Scudder · Apr 25, 2022

First, if you actually have patches of anti-halation dye coating that is not being removed, it means that your film is in contact with the tank (or itself) during processing and that is preventing liquids from getting to it. In that case, a simple rinse in a tray or whatever should do the trick. That said, if you have areas on the emulsion side of the film that are not getting processed and properly fixed, you'd end up with cloudy unfixed areas that won't wash out. They will fix away, however, so try returning the film to the fix off the reel or whatever is needed to ensure that fixer gets to the patches in question, and see if that works. If so, you'd better find a way to ensure that your film is not contacting anything during processing.

If, however, you have residual sensitizing dyes (think overall pink/magenta/blue tinge) then a short soak in a mildly-alkaline solution before the final wash should do the trick. Alkaline fixers seem to do the job too, which you are using. I had a problem with TMY and retained sensitizing dyes. I used mild solutions of sodium metaborate, sodium bicarbonate (regular baking soda) and sodium carbonate. All three did the job at different speeds.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Alan9940 · Apr 25, 2022

Thanks, Doremus (and everybody else that responded.) Based on the colors seen in the patches, I'd guess it's residual sensitizing dyes that I'm seeing. No question that these patches are the results of the film back being tightly against the film slot in the reel. I used a v2 B's reel which was supposed to help mitigate this issue (I, also, have a v1), but I guess it's just the nature of the beast. Going forward, I plan to use either my 20th Century reel or my B&W King tank. Neither reel of those two touches the film other than along the edges.

mshchem · Apr 25, 2022

Follow the film manufacturer instructions

pentaxuser · Apr 26, 2022

mshchem said:
Follow the film manufacturer instructions

If I may be so bold, this is always good advice but can I ask, what bit of such advice from Foma did he not follow? If you know then if it were me I'd be very happy to hear that it was

pentaxuser

Totally removing halation dye (staining developers)

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