Too long printing times with De Vere 504

JonathanLocke · Jan 31, 2010

I recently picked up a De Vere 504 with Dichromat 504 head (free standing model with baseboard that can be dropped).
It is equipped with a De Vere 500 W twin Stab. I thought it was standardly equipped with a Transtab?

Anyway, I seem not to get enough light out of it (definitely not 500W). I get printing times of up to 15 min for a 20 x 25 cm print...

So I suspect the problem could be the Twin Stab but I'm not very good at electrical stuff.

Does anybody have any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks

Nicholas Lindan · Jan 31, 2010

15 minutes for an 8x10 ... if it is that dim then how do you focus?

Something is really, really, really off. I take it this isn't your first enlarger. How does the image look on the easel compared to another unit?

If, however, it is your first enlarger:

Do you have the red filter swung away from the lens?
Is the Dichro head set to white light? Is the light white?
What f-stop are you printing with?
What are you using for developer?

Jesper · Jan 31, 2010

Check to see if you have the right lamps, not only the right power but also the right angle (if the angle is too wide you loose light this way).

I have a DeVere 5108 and a typical exposure time with that one is 10-30s (16x20" print). 15 minutes is definetely wrong.

Jim Taylor · Jan 31, 2010

Hi!
I have the benchtop 504, with the single lamp (250W) version of the dichromat head and the appropriate transtab. My exposure times are in the same region as Jesper's for B&W negs.

As we've all already agreed, something is definately very wrong, but it's really difficult to help from afar, not least because we have no idea of your level of experience in the darkroom and whether you have access to other equipment to test ideas etc.

I don't know if I can offer much help, but I had some teething trouble with my 504 setup when I got it, so the more info you can post here, then the more help I/we can (potentially) offer.

My initial thoughts follow the same line as Nicholas Lindan, but I'd ask the additional question: -

What are you using to determine your exposure times? a De Vere exposure timer/analyser unit, or something from a another manufacturer?

I ask this, because this was the route of my problems, some of which included image brightness

Cheers!

Mick Fagan · Jan 31, 2010

I have the same enlarger as you, but I feel the enlarger may not be the problem.

It is possible to emulate your times with a few parameters in place.

Firstly you could have a very dense negative. Possibly you lose 2 or 3 stops here.

Secondly you could be stopping down to a quite small f/stop like 22 or even smaller. You will lose maybe 2 or 3 stops here.

Thirdly you could have the 5x4" light mixer in the head when doing 35mm or 120 film, instead of the 8cm by 8cm light mixing box, this is a loss of about 1 stop here.

So with just those it is possible to require about 7 stops more exposure.

Then there is the possibility of you running all three colour filters in the head with a possible loss of 2 stops. Unlikely, but I have seen it done and have done this myself, although deliberately in my case.

Perhaps you could give us some information on film size and f/stop that you are using.

Mick.

Martin Aislabie · Feb 2, 2010

An obvious one really - but you haven't got the colour dials would up to maximum?

My 504 Mk4 has an access panel in the head for changing bulbs - if you look through the opening you can see the coloured filters sliding in and out as you move the dials.

My Mk4 has a 250W bulb and I have wound some Y/M/C in to act as a ND Filter just to keep the exposure times in the 10~20s range to allow for some dodging (5x4 Neg onto 12x16 MGFB Paper)

You could also check that your bulb(s) are almost blindingly bright when switched on

Martin

ic-racer · Feb 2, 2010

Azo paper???

Ian Grant · Feb 2, 2010

I'd get the lamp holder voltages checked, and also make sure the bulbs are the correct voltage rating.

Sometimes the heads are modified so get an electrician to check it over, a good TV, radio repair shop should be able to help.

Ian

fotch · Feb 2, 2010

More info is needed.

JonathanLocke · Feb 2, 2010

Thanks to you all for the suggestions.
A bit more info on why i think it is the enlarger.

I get consistent negs as for density. Even if I would have the odd one that is too dense, i have tested the enlarger with several 4x5 inch negs, 6x6 negs and they all give pretty much the same results.

I'll describe the setup that I used:

negative : 6x6 neg
paper: Ilford MG FB 24 x 30 cm
f/8
t: 12 to 15 min...
developers tested: Dektol/Agfa Print WA
Grade: 42M 32Y

When I look at the bulbs, I don't have the impression they give 500 W, but how can one tell by looking at them?
Anyway, I'll check the lamp holder voltages.

All suggestions are still welcome!

Mick Fagan · Feb 2, 2010

I am sort of at a loss as to how you require 12 to 15 minutes to get an image with a 6x6 negative.

Even assuming you are using the wrong light mixing box and the incorrect 150mm lens, instead of one around 75/80/100mm long, something just doesn't gel with me.

I now assume you have a two globe 500W head, well that is telling me your exposure would be around 12 to 15 seconds at that aperture.

With a 12 minute or longer exposure, I use an alarm clock to remind me, or to wake me up (literally).

The only time I have done exposures of that time length, or longer, is when doing mural enlargements.

Is it possible that the power to the lamps is not good and that they are low in glow, if you get my drift?

How do you focus, can you see grain?

Mick.

ic-racer · Feb 2, 2010

JonathanLocke said:
When I look at the bulbs, I don't have the impression they give 500 W, but how can one tell by looking at them?
Anyway, I'll check the lamp holder voltages.

All suggestions are still welcome!

I have trouble 'looking' at a 50W bulb so maybe they are dim

I agree, voltage check next.

I suspect you have checked other thinks like a dirty diffuser or IR glass (if present) or a 'stuck' attenuation filter (if present).

JonathanLocke · Feb 3, 2010

@mick.

12-15 seconds: i didn't even get that with very thin negatives...
me too, i'm sort of at a loss. Even thought of just throwing it out and get me a Super Chromega that I can pick up very cheaply. But on the other hand, i like the machine, so I'm gonna try to fix it anyway, see where it gets me.

To focus: I just dialled out all filtration, set the aperture at f/4 (80 mm by the way) so i could at least see the grain...

As posted, i'll check the voltage and change the lamps, see where that takes me. (and probably pick up the Super Chromega anyway... just in case)

@ ic-racer: diffuser and stuff has been checked yes...

Marco B · Feb 3, 2010

JonathanLocke said:
When I look at the bulbs, I don't have the impression they give 500 W, but how can one tell by looking at them?
Anyway, I'll check the lamp holder voltages.

All suggestions are still welcome!

If you can look at a 500W halogen bulb without severe eye damage, than there is definitely something wrong with either the bulb wattage, power supply or electrical circuits.

The light output of the 300W bulbs in my Ilford 500H multigrade head is blinding.

Ian Grant · Feb 3, 2010

Marco B said:
If you can look at a 500W halogen bulb without severe eye damage, than there is definitely something wrong with either the bulb wattage, power supply or electrical circuits.

The light output of the 300W bulbs in my Ilford 500H multigrade head is blinding.

Not to forget they get extremely hot, my 5108 colour head is modified so that the fans stay on after exposures, with a variable timer to control how long.

Ian

Marco B · Feb 3, 2010

Ian Grant said:
Not to forget they get extremely hot, my 5108 colour head is modified so that the fans stay on after exposures, with a variable timer to control how long.

Ian

The 500H Ilford head has a fan run-down time of slightly more than two minutes too. Quite handy actually, you know when its time to remove the print from the developer when it shuts down.

Jesper · Feb 3, 2010

This may be a stupid question, but what voltage do you use, and what voltage are the lamps designed for?
If you have two 110V lamps and you use 110V to feed them make sure that they are not connected one after the other but parallelly connected.

Ian Grant · Feb 3, 2010

Jesper said:
This may be a stupid question, but what voltage do you use, and what voltage are the lamps designed for?
If you have two 110V lamps and you use 110V to feed them make sure that they are not connected one after the other but parallelly connected.

Good point my 5108 uses 4 110v 300w lamps each pair wired in series, as the supply is 240v.

So if an enlarger's been taken from an area with 220/240v supply to one with 110v.

Check the transformer first often UK made equipment can be adjusted for either 240 or 120 supplies just by moving/changing a setting on the input side of the transformer. If that's set wrong then that would easily account for the huge drop in brightness.

Ian

Tom Kershaw · Feb 3, 2010

Ian,

As far as I'm aware the fans on my DeVere 5108 are turned on and off by the power switch on the control box alone.

Tom

Ian Grant · Feb 3, 2010

Tom Kershaw said:
Ian,
As far as I'm aware the fans on my DeVere 5108 are turned on and off by the power switch on the control box alone.
Tom

Mine's been modified Tom, I bought it from a Lab that had gone fully digital about 5 years ago, without taking it apart (when in the UK) I can't see how it's been wired up. But there are also variations in the color heads anyway so they may not all work in the same way when it comes to cooling.

Ian

Tom Kershaw · Feb 3, 2010

My Dichromat head is of the beige / brown variety, which I think is slightly earlier compared to a cream / black enlarger?

Ian Grant · Feb 3, 2010

Probably the same head, I'll give you details if I can next time I'm back in the UK, (probably in April).

Ian

dancqu · Feb 3, 2010

Bulbs are usually marked for voltage and wattage.
Have you the correct voltage?

12 to 15 seconds would do it for me. Dan

Jesper · Feb 3, 2010

My DeVere 5108 is also modified by its previous owner. Fans are controlled by a simple on-off switch.
It seems like whatever was the standard solution people didn't like it judging by the different modifications that people have.

The lamps are just like Ian's 2x110V+2x110V to make it work at 220V. Running a setup like that on just 110V would result in serious problems with the power.

Tom Kershaw · Feb 3, 2010

1200W / 120V = 10 amp, which should be reasonably straightforward to handle I'd have thought.

Tom

Too long printing times with De Vere 504

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