Too Late to start 4x5???

snaggs · Jan 2, 2006

I borrowed a Linhof IV to try out some 4x5, unfortunately, the instructions I had given to load the film were wrong, and I had loaded all the film in the double darks upside down PERFECTLY

Anyways, its been 6 months.. and I'm reading Kenny Rockwells site again, reading about tilt shift lenses and then about how getting the latest DSLR and lenses won't make you a better photographer etc.

I'm wondering whether forcing myself down the more contemplative 4x5 route would teach me some finer skills. However, is it too late to be starting 4x5? I've done some stiching of 13 megapixel DSLR images to good effect, although its a pain in the bum with people walking around, it is possible to cut around and clone out the odd duplicate person

Maybe I should just keep honing this skill? I can buy this 4x5 Linhof IV, with 3 lenses etc complete in Pelican case for the equivalent of US$500.

Maybe that would be better spent on a proper panorama head.. maybe its too late for 4x5?

Daniel.

Dave Parker · Jan 2, 2006

I hope its not to late!!! I need more customers!! LOL, no really, I don't think its ever to late to start something new, loading film backwards is something we all have done, you will never achieve anything with digital you can't with film and going back to the basic root of our skill and passion is never a bad thing..

Spend the money on the 4x5, I don't know that I would get a Linhof, but I would maybe look at something a little less expensive, something that would allow you to experiance the craft and see if it really is for you, I am sure you will become addicted as many of us non-conforming fools that post on this website do every single day...

Dave

Mark Fisher · Jan 2, 2006

If you can get the Linhof plus lenses for $500, go ahead and try it. The worst you'll do is make a fair amount of money off the Linhof should you decide to sell it. Even though I don't use LF all the time, my skills definately have improved for using it.

Mark

medform-norm · Jan 2, 2006

Satinsnow said:
I hope its not to late!!! I need more customers!! LOL, no really, I don't think its ever to late to start something new, loading film backwards is something we all have done, you will never achieve anything with digital you can't with film and going back to the basic root of our skill and passion is never a bad thing..

Spend the money on the 4x5, I don't know that I would get a Linhof, but I would maybe look at something a little less expensive, something that would allow you to experiance the craft and see if it really is for you, I am sure you will become addicted as many of us non-conforming fools that post on this website do every single day...

Dave

I dunno Dave, 500$ for the whole deal (cam+3lenses+pellican) doesn't sound too bad to me, providing the lenses are decent. I bet he could even sell it for a little more if he decided this camera wasn't his thing.
Norm

Dave Parker · Jan 2, 2006

medform-norm said:
I dunno Dave, 500$ for the whole deal (cam+3lenses+pellican) doesn't sound too bad to me, providing the lenses are decent. I bet he could even sell it for a little more if he decided this camera wasn't his thing.
Norm

Okay, okay, I read his thread again and did not realize he was getting quite so much for the selling price, $500 is a good price if this in good working condition..

Sorry scanning the thread and I did not pay full attention to what he was saying..

But to reinterate, yes, get it and get shooting, its NEVER to late!

Dave

PS, by the way, would you mind revealing who has this setup for this price????? HUH, pretty please!!!

LOL

snaggs · Jan 2, 2006

Yeh, US$500 is the cheapest I've see here.. It worked fine when I borrowed it.. the guy is just selling it on cheap because I'm a regular customer and he doesn't have time for photography any more (he runs a small camera shop / Fuji Frontier). Off the top of my head It has 2 x Schneider lenses, a 280mm and a 90 maybe? and a Nikkor W-140..

The Wideangle has a chip out of edge of the front element, but apparently its invisible in the photos. It also comes with a Cambo Rubber back thingo which means you can look through the back like an SLR camera..

Ok... so lets say I do buy this.. How do I make sure I learn how to use it.. with my DSLR I usually see a really good shot style on the web, and then try to work out how they shot it and copy the technique..

Does anyone have some good examples of 4x5 shots which use swings and tilts?

Daniel.

Dave Parker · Jan 2, 2006

Snaggs,

Your in the best place in the world to learn the techniques required to take good large format shots, the skills and talent in this one little website are probably the best massed group of people I have ever been associated with! period without a question..

Get the camera and the other stuff, then ask your questions around this neck of the woods, if you have the skills, the talent will be developed far beyond your imagination.

In the meantime, look at the shot and not the equipment, you will find this to be one of the best learning experiances you can ever have.

Welcome to the fold!

Dave

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 2, 2006

It's never too late, and $500 for a Tech IV with three lenses is a great deal.

Start by reading the articles at lfphoto.info. A good introductory book on LF photography is Steve Simmons' _Using the View Camera_.

MattCarey · Jan 2, 2006

snaggs said:
Does anyone have some good examples of 4x5 shots which use swings and tilts?

The first image I took with a 4x5 (and the first I posted here) used a lot of front tilt

Without it, I would never have been able to keep so much of the image in focus.

Matt

Steve Hamley · Jan 2, 2006

Sorry, it's too late. Send the name of the guy with the $500 Linhof and 3 lenses to me.

Steve

roteague · Jan 2, 2006

snaggs said:
I'm wondering whether forcing myself down the more contemplative 4x5 route would teach me some finer skills. However, is it too late to be starting 4x5? I've done some stiching of 13 megapixel DSLR images to good effect, although its a pain in the bum with people walking around, it is possible to cut around and clone out the odd duplicate person

No, I don't think you should force yourself to learn LF; it will only stifle your creativity. You need to think about and consider if it is really a skill you want to learn. You also need to consider what your photographic philosophy is, IMO. You talk about stiching and cloning out people, it sounds like you really are more interested in being a digital photographer. Going down the LF path, takes effort and a willingness to persevere; stiching and cloning are the easy way out, LF takes work.

Charles Webb · Jan 2, 2006

Your question is a good one, and I am not sure I can answer it. I can however make a few comments. The future of image making will belong to the electronic world, not with film as we know it. Had I grown up using computers and digital imaging I might be a bit slow to give it up and go to something new and in my opinion un proven. Photographers using film will not suddenly disappear, there will always be those who will support and use analog materials, chemicals etc. as long as they are manufactured. When the materials to participate in the craft of Art Photography are extinct there will be those who will make their own materials to keep analog alive.. We have several on this list who are already doing this kind of thing. And doing it quite well I might say.

To me the best way to master a craft is to study and understand it's history. Learn why a view camera has movements, most important is learning when to use them and how they can improve your image. Most of the high dollar digital cameras are still not much more than point and shoot devices that depend heavily on the computer to deliver a quality, corrected print. I believe for the young person just entering the photography world today, must be able to compete by being familiar with and have knowledge of the latest equipment and techniques. You most likely won't learn much about the future world of photography by using the Linhoff, but using the Linhoff will help you learn to see better. If that same young person wishes to earn their living in the commercial field of photography, perhaps the digital road might be their best path. I am thankful that I do not have to make that decision. Good luck whatever your decision.

I do love love the sound of sheet film sliding into a film holder,
Charlie.........................

roteague · Jan 2, 2006

A lot of very good, wise, and experienced points Charles. I would not have come to my love of LF landscape photography if it wasn't for the works of people like Ansel Adams and David Muench, as well as the first photographers to open the American wilderness in the 1800s.

While I am not convinced you have to do digital to do commercial photography yet, I do believe that day is coming and it would be folly to ignore that which is on the horizon.

Like you, I love the sound of a sheet film holder. I love looking at a transparency on a light table; I'm not tied to a computer to look at my images.

Ole · Jan 2, 2006

Get the camera. If you find out LF is not for you you can sell it; if you decide you need digital get a digital back (expensive, but prices will come down).

Nicole · Jan 2, 2006

I hope it's not too late, my new years resolution is to go LF this year for some of my projects.

severian · Jan 2, 2006

too late

I completely agree with Steve. Much too late to start 4x5. Send me the name of the person selling the camera and I'll go $501.00. Thats just the kind of guy I am.
Jack

Wilbur Wong · Jan 2, 2006

"its a pain in the bum with people walking around, it is possible to cut around and clone out the odd duplicate person "

How about slow film, stopped way down, maybe even neutral density filter, long exposure and blurred possibly non-existant people?

jovo · Jan 2, 2006

A retired professional photographer who runs an after-school photography program, told me he bought and uses a five year old digital back for his view camera that was less than 20% of its original cost. It's not $500 by any means, but it isn't $25,000 either. So he's happy to be able to use traditional technology as well as digital. View cameras can do things that no other kind of camera can. (Remember that PS 'fixes' change or discard pixels; it never adds new information from the original subject.) It's worth discovering what can be done with the most competent and flexible photographic tool there is whether or not you use film or digi to do it.

It'll only be too late if the guy with the Linhof kit sells it to someone else.

photobackpacker · Jan 2, 2006

Daniel, you are the only one who can resolve your ambivalence. Something keeps drawing you back to LF despite the disappointment of your first experience. You will not know what that draw is until you try it. I wonder if it is satisfaction with the process - moreso than equipment selection.

The best we can do is hold up a mirror to reflect back to you what you are saying:

You seem to be saying:

- You have achieved good skills in digital but the results aren't wholly satisfying - something is missing.

- You want to learn and grow as a photographer

It seems you might be saying:

- There would be more satisfaction in capturing the decisive moment rather than creating it on the computer?

- Backing up in order to go forward in a slightly different direction is not something you do lightly (or naturally) - particularly when large expenditures (dollars and time) are involved?

- You usually do more of what has not fully satisfied rather than to start over?

You are talking to people who have discovered that it isn't the destination - it is the journey. For many of us, process is as important as the end product. If that is what is motivating your search - you will need to experience it to know for sure.

Good luck.

Marv · Jan 2, 2006

Quite the dilemma you've brought upon yourself. Having worked in both digital and large format I feel they both serve a purpose and can be loads of fun in the process.

It wasn't all that long ago LF afficianados disparaged the small formats of 6X6 and 35mm. They seem to have caught on and in the process opened the same avenues for creativity that digital is now opening.

You speak of "forcing myself down the more contemplative 4x5 route"; don't think of it as work or being forced. The contemplative route is one of discovery, both of images and your ability, and should be traveled with enthusiasm and wonder (sometimes wonder why I'm lugging this contraption around, but that is another story).

I think you just may be seduced by the dark slide and may find the lessons learned are worth much more than the price paid. Good luck at what ever your endeavor.

roteague · Jan 2, 2006

jovo said:
(Remember that PS 'fixes' change or discard pixels; it never adds new information from the original subject.)

Unless you change the size of the image to make it bigger; it then has to use a method of interpolation to determine how to add new pixels to the image.

htmlguru4242 · Jan 2, 2006

Roteauge said:

Unless you change the size of the image to make it bigger; it then has to use a method of interpolation to determine how to add new pixels to the image.

Keep in mind that this does not add information from the subject. I simply estimates what the mixel would be based on those pixels around it ...

As to the large format dillema, it's really up to you. I've just recently started large format (with a borrowed camera) and though it's a quite involved process, I love it. It gives a lot more flexibility than SF or MF film or digital. And judjing by the current prices of a new LF camera and lenses, $500 for a camera, 3 lenses and a pelican case (a nice extra), is really good. If you think that you have the time and willingness to learn LF, go for it! It can be loads of fun (even if you do load the film backwards), and is very rewarding when done well. If you want to, do it!

Too Late to start 4x5???

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