Toning Conundrum

[blaze-on]

Last night I toned a series of prints (portraits) printed on Arista II MG FB.
I did 1:10 @6 minutes. I wanted the slight eggpplant/brown tone and the first 8 or so did fine. The last few prints did not change color except to replace the slight green tint of this paper to a more cooler/slight bluish tone. So now they don't match and since they are portraits of a friend, his wife and his mother, that ain't gonna cut it..(his were the ones that did not change to match others)

Same developing/process sequence for all. Previously fixed for two minutes in TF4 and washed.

Water>Hypo (2min)>Selenium (6 min)>HCA (3 min)

Plenty of liquid in all trays...total of about 11 prints run through. Just the last three did not do as I expected...All were then washed in a print washer and still the same.

Inconsistencies with paper? Thoughts?
TIA,
Matt

 

[Claire Senft]

Take the more lightly toned prints and re-wet and tone them again. Toner has a definite life. You may have exceeded your toners capacity.

See the recent threrad by Blansky regarding a similar problem.

Were these prints put into a mounting press and subjected to heat?

 

[blaze-on]

Take the more lightly toned prints and re-wet and tone them again. Toner has a definite life. You may have exceeded your toners capacity.

I wouldn't think 11 prints (7x7 on 8x10 paper) would have depleted that quickly...but worth a try. WTH...

See the recent threrad by Blansky regarding a similar problem. Were these prints put into a mounting press and subjected to heat?

His thread was losing tone after dry mounting, and I haven't dry mounted them yet..

I'll try re-toning to see what happens...
Any other thoughts?

 

[blaze-on]

I just retoned with fresh selenium-no noticeable changes.

I also forgot to mention the very last print I toned was an 11x14 test print of another image I worked on while these were getting a quick wash before toning. When I toned this one (last) it behaved as the first 8 did, so..

My thoughts/guess is that the paper is the culprit??

Voodoo practicing tse-tse fly was in the room?

 

[Claire Senft]

Do you know what the Arista II is otherwise marketed as eg..Forte polygrade?

 

[blaze-on]

Do you know what the Arista II is otherwise marketed as eg..Forte polygrade?

Nope, but doesn't surprise me...

 

[tim rudman]

Plenty of liquid in all trays...Matt

How much is plenty Matt?
Also
What about your dev proceedure? How many prints processed, including tests, duffs etc? How much dev? How consistent with time and temp? ie pulled on inspection or by the clock etc. What dev and what times do you use? Fixing time? holding baths?
It isn't always appreciated that a lot of toning problems are caused before you get to the toner. Is your process 100% consistent or is it a bit on the wing ;-) ?
Tim

 

[blaze-on]

I was eventually going to contact you Tim, so thank you for tuning in...

For the toning process, I had about 1.7 L of sel in a 11x14 tray, as I was only toning the 11 prints.

All were developed with the same developer/fixer with the same time. 3 minute dev (2 liters) and two minute in TF4, holding tray, some longer than others...
7 were printed one night, the other 4 the following night. Although trays not checked, the temperature in the room was equal both nights (thermometer on wall, window a/c unit on for one hour prior to working.) There were maybe 4-5 additional prints (test strips, duffs) processed as well (Dev/water/fix/water hold).

On the second night, the devloper had a slight replenishment (1:2) added (Formulary's 130, 1:2), as I left it (covered) from the previous night. These toned fine.

Is it possible that washing the first batch and drying before the following night's developing, resoak and toning had an effect? Whereas the second nights prints were put in a holding tray until I set up for toning..then again, some of the prints from the first night toned as I wanted, and the other half didn't. The stuff I printed the night I toned was fine, just like half the first night's batch....:confused: whew..."Who's on first?"

Before delving into my procedural misgivings, I was hoping someone else had a similar prob and determined it was the paper...After all, isn't it easier to blame a product than the user??

Tim, I honestly did not think that the dev process (unless totally haphazard) could affect toning when done on same paper, same dev/fixer, et al...

But before I truly accept the fault and suffer my penance, maybe the above info will help...

 

[tim rudman]

For the toning process, I had about 1.7 L of sel in a 11x14 tray, as I was only toning the 11 prints.

All were developed with the same developer/fixer with the same time. 3 minute dev (2 liters) and two minute in TF4, holding tray, some longer than others...
7 were printed one night, the other 4 the following night. Although trays not checked, the temperature in the room was equal both nights (thermometer on wall, window a/c unit on for one hour prior to working.) There were maybe 4-5 additional prints (test strips, duffs) processed as well (Dev/water/fix/water hold).

On the second night, the devloper had a slight replenishment (1:2) added (Formulary's 130, 1:2), as I left it (covered) from the previous night. These toned fine.

Is it possible that washing the first batch and drying before the following night's developing, resoak and toning had an effect? Whereas the second nights prints were put in a holding tray until I set up for toning..then again, some of the prints from the first night toned as I wanted, and the other half didn't. The stuff I printed the night I toned was fine, just like half the first night's batch....:confused: whew..."Who's on first?"

Before delving into my procedural misgivings, I was hoping someone else had a similar prob and determined it was the paper...After all, isn't it easier to blame a product than the user??

Tim, I honestly did not think that the dev process (unless totally haphazard) could affect toning when done on same paper, same dev/fixer, et al...

But before I truly accept the fault and suffer my penance, maybe the above info will help...

Well it 'could' be the paper and yes you are right - it's nice to put the blame on the materials whenever possible - But my experience of workshops is that it is more commonly the operator! ;-) Inconsistent dev time - by inspection, in a hurry, batch processing etc - leaving prints forgotten in the fix too long, poor washing, contamination - these are common on group workshops of course (too many cooks) but they can and do play havoc with toning.

I'm not sure what the current Arista 11 MG FB is, I know there have been various changes due to the upheavals in the supplying markets. If it is advertised as made in Hungary it is their clue to the buyer that it is Forte. They make lovely papers but their consistency is not the same quality as say Ilford.
If it is made in England that is a pretty clear tip too. There have been lots of recent coating changes there also, so paper is a possible culprit.

It is interesting that the dev was different on night 2 (replenished), yet the all fresh dev prints on night 1 gave you the problems.

I doubt that it was the drying overnight that was responsible unless you heat dried, then it could be. I often tone on another day after air drying and have never had your problem. Were they all resoaked fully and equally? If the first ones through toned poorly and weren't as well soaked as the following ones, which toned OK, there is a possible reason.

It's really difficult to pin down from afar unless there is an obvious cause though. When I started toning many years ago it did seem to be a somewhat haphazard process - unquestionably the materials. As I got more and more disciplined over time, I was surprised to see how much the materials had improved in that time! There is a clue there ;-)
Tim

 

[George Collier]

If the first night prints were washed, then resoaked, and the second night prints were held, and, if I read correctly, given a "quick wash" before toning. Formulary recommends a thorough wash to rid prints of all fixer before toning. Maybe the first night prints got a better wash, between the first complete wash and the second soaking? Seems like more than coincidence.
I am just starting to use TF4 with prints, so I can't say from experience.

 

[blaze-on]

Thanks Tim, got the point.

I'll reprint the three, follow same procedures and see what happens.

 

[hortense]

I suspect the paper. I have never had this problem with Polymax, Ilford, or Agfa papers.