Toning after Sistan?

[Jojje]

Made a few prints today. As these are on RC-paper I intend to use Agfa Sistan treatment later. However, some might be very suitable for blue toning, does Sistan inhibit this?

 

[xkaes]

I guess it depends. I use Sistan on my prints whether I've toned them or not -- I usually selenium tone. I only use Sistan as a last step. I never thought about using it first. That might make a difference, depending on the toner(s). Lots of toners are stabilizers, so adding Sistan probably provides little, if any, extra protection, anyway.

Try it both ways and let us know.

 

[Oren Grad]

Sistan/Adostab is intended for use as the last processing step, after the final wash. The thiocyanate from Sistan/Adostab resides in the emulsion of the dried print, ready to react with any oxidized silver compounds that form. If you put a treated print back into water you risk washing out some or all of it, perhaps unevenly.

And on the other hand, I don't whether or how the thiocyanate in Sistan/Adostab would interact with the reaction products from blue toning. I would ask Adox before proceeding.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Made a few prints today. As these are on RC-paper I intend to use Agfa Sistan treatment later. However, some might be very suitable for blue toning, does Sistan inhibit this?

I don't think so. Nevertheless, In my process, Sistan is the last step after direct polysulphide toning, Just made more sense to me that way,because I don't wash after Sistan anymore

 

[otto.f]

As Sistan is meant to keep the tones stable I'd say that it might diminish the effect of blue and other tonings, so better safe than sorry and use it as the last bath.

 

[koraks]

The thiocyanate from Sistan/Adostab

Is it predominantly a thiocyante product? I never looked into this, but it sounds reasonable. I always thought it would be something that actually adheres to the silver, thereby passivating it, but never thought what it might be.

In any case, if it's in fact a scavenger compound, then you'd have to analyze it for each particular toner specifically, as toners all have their own chemistry. Some may not care about the thiocyanate that's present, others may simply die and not work at all, and yet others will probably stain the entire print. Maybe some of the resident chemists of Photrio can comment on this some more.

@Jojje, what kind of toning do you have in mind? Only blue toning? What's your procedure & chemistry? Btw, I'd expect iron blue toning to be one of the more sensitive ones that may produce problems if any thiocyanate is present.

 

[Jojje]

Is it predominantly a thiocyante product? I never looked into this, but it sounds reasonable. I always thought it would be something that actually adheres to the silver, thereby passivating it, but never thought what it might be.

In any case, if it's in fact a scavenger compound, then you'd have to analyze it for each particular toner specifically, as toners all have their own chemistry. Some may not care about the thiocyanate that's present, others may simply die and not work at all, and yet others will probably stain the entire print. Maybe some of the resident chemists of Photrio can comment on this some more.

@Jojje, what kind of toning do you have in mind? Only blue toning? What's your procedure & chemistry? Btw, I'd expect iron blue toning to be one of the more sensitive ones that may produce problems if any thiocyanate is present.

So I'll have to experiment a bit. The thing is, you might not know what print will be toned maybe a year or two later when you get inspired... Better mark the prints. I'll probably brew my own iron blue toner some day.
Sistan safety data sheet says it has phenol and potassium thiocyanate in it.

 

[miha]

Since washing/rinsing after the Sistan treatment was never advised by Agfa I guess any bath after it would simply rinse it off, therefore negate its effect.

 

[xkaes]

It's easy enough to test for short-term effects -- do one print one way and another the opposite. But as Oren & miha mentioned, toning AFTER Sistan will likely remove the Sistan, so what's the point of using Sistan at all?

Still you can compare a print with regular toning and no Sistan to a print with toning -- and then Sistaned. You'll know if there is an immediate effect/change/problem (who knows, you might like it!), but long term?????

I have not had any problem -- that I know of -- but I mainly use selenium toner and Poly-toner --and THEN Sistan with no final rinse.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

This might help, an original AGFA publication about Sistan, sorry for it is in German:

BTW I have been using AGFA's Sistan for About 30 years now.
And when, after some contemplating, I decide to do a 'treatment' of any kind on a Baryta print AFTER the Sistan bath, I simply wash that print for a few muntes, and go on whatever I am planing to, which is mostly a Viradon toning (I still have a strategic stock).
And when that 'treatment' is done, I simply repeat the Sistan bath.

The same goes for film, but I usually don't give the film any 'postume' treatment, if it isn't for a Selenium bath to 'pimp' density and contrast a little, but that happens rarely...

 

[Jojje]

This might help, an original AGFA publication about Sistan, sorry for it is in German:

BTW I have been using AGFA's Sistan for About 30 years now.
And when, after some contemplating, I decide to do a 'treatment' of any kind on a Baryta print AFTER the Sistan bath, I simply wash that print for a few muntes, and go on whatever I am planing to, which is mostly a Viradon toning (I still have a strategic stock).
And when that 'treatment' is done, I simply repeat the Sistan bath.

The same goes for film, but I usually don't give the film any 'postume' treatment, if it isn't for a Selenium bath to 'pimp' density and contrast a little, but that happens rarely...

Haven't seen this one before, thanks! Can read German, a bit slowly. I still have a stock of Viradon, too.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Haven't seen this one before, thanks! Can read German, a bit slowly. I still have a stock of Viradon, too.

The original so called old- or the New Viradon?
I was told that the New had no Selenium in it, but I am not so sure...

I know, after Viradon no Sistan is needed, but I do it as I am so used to it, old habits you know...

 

[Jojje]

The original so called old- or the New Viradon?
I was told that the New had no Selenium in it, but I am not so sure...

I know, after Viradon no Sistan is needed, but I do it as I am so used to it, old habits you know...

I guess mine are all old..!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Years ago, I helped the photo teacher at another high school with a very large print that he had made on Agfa RC Multigrade. By the time I got there, he had already washed it, and ran it through a bath of Sistan. I suggested toning it. I showed him how to tone it in KRST. It toned nicely.

 

[xkaes]

I showed him how to tone it in KRST. It toned nicely.

Do you recall if it looked different in some way than if it had not been Sistanned?

Also, did you re-Sistan it after the selenium toning?

Curious minds want to know!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Do you recall if it looked different in some way than if it had not been Sistanned?

Also, did you re-Sistan it after the selenium toning?

Curious minds want to know!

I had zero experience with that paper, so I couldn't tell you. All I can tell you is that it toned nicely. I don't recall Sistaning it after toning. It was almost 20 years ago

 

[Ian Grant]

Sistan will have no adverse effect if used first, before toning, however don't use it after blue toning, it won't affect selenium or sepia toners.

Ian

 

[xkaes]

Sistan will have no adverse effect if used first, before toning, however don't use it after blue toning...

Is this because it changes the color, reduces longevity, modifies the contrast, or something evil, wicked, mean, bad and nasty?

 

[Ian Grant]

I should have added wash the print first to remove the Thiocyanate.

Is this because it changes the color, reduces longevity, modifies the contrast, or something evil, wicked, mean, bad and nasty?

Thiocyanate was the principle chemical used in the activator, of the activator stabiliser process for very rapid processing of developer incorporated, the activator was essentially Sodium Hydroxide.

Thiocyanate reacts with Silver salts, in Sistan the idea is it complexes with any residual silver complexes formed during fixing left in an emulsion. A point missed is this is really mostly an issue with FB papers where these complexes loosely bind with the cellulose in the paper base. Two bath fixing eliminates the issue. The chemistry of Fixation is a remarkably complicated process, I didn't use the word complex because there are a number of equilibrium equations that are affected by the build up of Bromide, Chloride, and particularly Iodide.

But to answer your question Iron Blue toners are quite unstable, so Thiosulphate or Thiocyanate can/will degrade the image tone.

Ian

 

[Jojje]

mostly an issue with FB papers where these complexes loosely bind with the cellulose in the paper base.

If my memory serves me right, Sistan was (in 1990's?) mainly proposed to be used with RC-papers. I've never used Sistan with FB papers. This time used RC paper as I have no facilities to wash 30x40 prints properly. It may be of interest the paper I used was Fineprint from eFKe which I had refrigerated since 2007! Performed faultlessly, nice warm white base, picture came out very swiftly, as with Brovira, I suspect developer incorporated..?

 

[Ian Grant]

The Agfa B&W Handbook says that Sistan precipitates any residual Silver salts left in the emulsion/paper to an insoluble form. It can be used with film. and FB & RC papers, Agfa also say that Sulphide or Gold toning are equally as effective, I'd add Selenium and Thiorea toners as well.

It's interesting that no other company (at the time) recommended it.

Ian

 

[miha]

Another archival product introduced by FujiFilm in 1984 was Ag guard, chemically different to Sistan (2-(amidinothio)ethanesulfonic acid).

 

[xkaes]

The Agfa B&W Handbook says that Sistan precipitates any residual Silver salts left in the emulsion/paper to an insoluble form. It can be used with film. and FB & RC papers, Agfa also say that Sulphide or Gold toning are equally as effective, I'd add Selenium and Thiorea toners as well.

It's interesting that no other company (at the time) recommended it.

Ian

So for many toners, finishing with Sistan is a just a waste of time and chemicals -- and for other toners, Sistan will have negative effects on the toning.

Sounds like Sistan should only be used on UN-toned prints -- which I usually don't produce, even though I have a good supply of Sistan.

 

[Ian Grant]

So for many toners, finishing with Sistan is a just a waste of time and chemicals -- and for other toners, Sistan will have negative effects on the toning.

Sounds like Sistan should only be used on UN-toned prints -- which I usually don't produce, even though I have a good supply of Sistan.

Sounds about right. L F A Mason in "Photographic Processing Chemistry" notes that residual Thiocyanate can cause image bleaching, this is why Agfa said not to use too high a concentration of Sistan as it can lead to staining which takes some time to appear. However the Sistan working solution is around 0.5% Thiocyanate or less, and has a capacity of 40 b10x8 prints per litre, so you are looking at very low levels in film/paper emulsions or paper base.

Mason was Head of Research at Ilford, his editor (for Focal Press) was G I P Levenson held a similar position at Kodak Research in Harrow. They also note the use of Thiourea and derivatives as a stabiliser, also Benzene derivatives.

Ian

 

[Jojje]

Very useful and interesting information, I'm glad I asked, thank you all!