Toning advise for home darkroom.

I have been researching toning for a while and would like to try it out, the idea of getting a better tonal scale is the main objective.

However I only have a small bathroom converted darkroom and need to be able to set-up and pack-up quickly. Reading The print by Ansel Adams seems to indicate I need at least 4-5 trays (2nd fixer, selenium toner, hypo-clear, rinse, wash) in the workflow.

So these are my barrier to toning process:
Lack of space (for trays, washer)
Poor ventilation (the smell, I share my bathroom with others)
Chemical storage (I want to keep as little chemical at home as possible)

I have managed to standardised my film dev and film print technique quite well and can work with small space and material inventory. Are there products or technique that are worth trying so I can add toning to my workflow and acheive a reasonable result?

Hamster:

Two things to keep in mind when considering toning when you have a bathroom darkroom:

1) All steps in the toning process can be done in normal light; and
2) It is not necessary to tone immediately after you print and process.

I don't use my darkroom to do my toning, and I quite frequently tone one or more days after I've printed.

Matt

Once my prints are fixed and had a skort was I take them out of the darkroom for selenium toning. KRST has quite a strong ammia smell, not good in a confined place like a bathroom as you've realised.

With Selenium toning I prefer a good light level, daylight ideally, because I control the degree of Toning so that I reach the point where it splits, ie the blacks begin to turn red, I'll use a scrap print or test strip to find that point and then I work either side of it.

To do this I use two trays, one for the toning, the other with running water to hold the prints, then I after a short wash I use wash aid (2% Sodium Sulphite) then finally wash the prints for an hour, if there's a number I have a siphon that allows me to use the bath (fit's in the plug hole).

Ian

Thanks Matt and Ian, this is getting more encouraging.

Is Hypo-clear something that is essential? Or is it like stop-bath in film dev where it is a "nice-to-have"?

I don't understand your suggested workflow. Do you really intend to use a separate tray for each step?

When I selenium tone, I simply first develop and process all prints and wash them. Than I remove my developer/stop/fix, and put down one tray (might be the fixers tray, as I read the selenium toner already contains fixer type chemicals if i remember well), and put the prints in there one by one, and than transport them to a separate wash tray.

There is no need for 4-5 extra trays... and I am also not sure if you need a second fixer bath specifically for toning. I think the second (fresh) fixer bath is just a "normal" procedure for archival processing.

About the selenium toners smell: Yes, the toner gives of a repugnant ammonia smell in the beginning, but after a few times use, the smell becomes considerably less, while it still is fully functional. Run your bathrooms ventilator continuously. Actually, I don't understand why manufacturers put in so much ammonia, as it doesn't seem to be really that necessary. Selenium toner can be kept long, mine is over a years old now, and hardly gives of an ammonia smell any more.

In addition, instead of selenium toning, you might consider sepia toning. A two bath odourless thiourea based sepia toner (bleach / redevelop) is no problem even in a closed bathroom. Actually, you might like the sepia toner more, as contrary to selenium toner, it doesn't require adjustment of your printing. Selenium toner has a tendency to block up shadows, unless you print half a grade less hard than normal, in my experience. Of course, if you already print low contrast, you might like the boost, but it can be unpredictable, which is less of a problem so with sepia toning.

As with selenium toning, I first process all prints normally, than remove the trays, and replace them with the bleach / redeveloper trays and one extra tray for the in between washing.

As others have said, it's best to selenium tone outside of the darkroom in good daylight so you can judge the colour and density changes accurately - I use our kitchen without problems. Just be careful you don't spill the selenium toner anywhere and clear up carefully - it's extremely unhealthy stuff.

The process I follow is to fix the prints as normal, wash them for 45 minutes and then selenium tone them followed by a further 30 minute wash. I don't re-fix and there's no need for hypo-clear. I use two trays in the toning process. One full of water to hold the washed prints prior to and after toning and one to hold the selenium.

You could also consider split toning in sepia similar to what Marco suggested. I take a different route to him though to achieve a longer tonal scale and more contrast. I over expose the print about half a stop to create deep blacks and to ensure that there is sufficient density in the highlights to attract the toner. I then split tone in sepia so that only the highlights and upper mid-tones are bleached. The bleaching and toning process lighten these areas and since the shadows have been slightly over exposed you get strong, dark blacks and very delicate highlights. It's a different means to a similar end as selenium toning which, due to the efficacy of split toning in sepia, I generally only need for lith work. You need three trays for sepia toning - one for bleach, one for toner and one to hold the prints in. It's always preferable to have separate trays for toning to those used for print development as it reduces the risk of contamination.

So I think I can get away with toning on the window sill provided that I clean up. I have a vertical print washer so that can act as my holding tray. That solves the space problem.

I read on the Fotoimpex website that ADOSTAB, their Sistan replacement also intensifies the image a bit. Does anyone know if it works the same way as a toner.

I've found KRST 1+10 and 1+20 to not have much smell at all. I do it in the darkroom and outside of it. Diluted it's not really a massive safety risk but I take care not to get it on my hands or wash myself in it.

Concentrated form it definitely has more smell and I take appropriate precautions when dealing with it (but once again, common sense wins).

Hamster said:

Thanks Matt and Ian, this is getting more encouraging.

Is Hypo-clear something that is essential? Or is it like stop-bath in film dev where it is a "nice-to-have"?

Click to expand...

Hypo-clear after fixing cuts washing in half. Since selenium toner contains some hypo, a hypo-clearing bath after selenium toning is often recommended. A strong hypo-clearing bath also acts as a toning stop bath for sulfide toning (which is better for archival toning than selenium by the way). Consequently, don't use hypo-clear after fixing if you intent to sulfide tone afterwards, or you might not get much toning done. But wash thoroughly before sulfide toning or the fixer will interact with the toner and you might get staining.

I prefer split-toning, a bit selenium first and then sulfide, it darkens the blacks and warms the highlights, while making the print very archival. You might want to try that, but be careful, sulfide toning is not recommended in confined spaces. Besides being a very smelly process, it is also poisonous without ventilation. The results are worth taking it outside though.

RalphLambrecht said:

You might want to try that, but be careful, sulfide toning is not recommended in confined spaces. Besides being a very smelly process, it is also poisonous without ventilation. The results are worth taking it outside though.

Click to expand...

That's why I would recommended the two bath odouless thiourea sepia toner instead of a smelly (H2S) sulfide toner. The end result of that toner and a sulfide toner is the same, an archivally protected sepia toned image.

The only disadvantage of the thiourea is you need two baths: one for bleaching and one for re-developing

MattKing said:

1) All steps in the toning process can be done in normal light

Click to expand...

Is this valid also for steps in bromoil process?

thanks and sorry for small OT

Marco B said:

That's why I would recommended the two bath odouless thiourea sepia toner instead of a smelly (H2S) sulfide toner. The end result of that toner and a sulfide toner is the same, an archivally protected sepia toned image.

The only disadvantage of the thiourea is you need two baths: one for bleaching and one for re-developing

Click to expand...

I'm just not comfortable with the bleaching step. Doing all these test strips to get highlights and shadows just right and then leave it to chance what they turn into after bleaching and toning. No, just can't get used to that idea.

I'm also not entirely convinced that thiourea has the same archival properties as sulfide either. My literature search returned no evidence of that. Ian Grant may know the answer.

Ralph, I know that you have a scientific bent, and thoroughly research all of your processes. Hence, I wonder if you are convinced that selenium toning really DOES add archival "benefits" to one's prints. The entire subject of selenium toning as been studied at RIT, and if I recall correctly ( please correct me if I mis-speak ), the archival benefits conferred by such toning might be.....well, ephemeral.

Schuess,

Ed

RalphLambrecht said:

I'm just not comfortable with the bleaching step. Doing all these test strips to get highlights and shadows just right and then leave it to chance what they turn into after bleaching and toning. No, just can't get used to that idea.

Click to expand...

I generally don't tone to completion (I not necessarily tone for archival, but more for aesthetic purposes), which means any effects on tones are moderate. But in my experience, I find the effects of selenium far more unpredictable than for a thiourea based toner (can't speak for sulfide as I have never used it).

With selenium, I see both an unwanted bleaching of my highlights (not much discussed here on APUG, usually only the darkening is mentioned), and a blocking up of shadows sometimes.

With a partial thiourea sepia toning, I rarely if ever feel the need to adjust my initial printing to compensate for any effects in the toning stage. I find the results more than acceptable, and see little negative effect, if any (at least with partial tonings).

RalphLambrecht said:

I'm also not entirely convinced that thiourea has the same archival properties as sulfide either. My literature search returned no evidence of that. Ian Grant may know the answer.

Click to expand...

I have read quite a lot too, but have not read the contrary either, that is, that thiourea would be less good than sulfide. On what is your remark based? I would be interested to see some references, if you have some links... Both convert the silver to Ag2S as I understood it, which is the stable component...

The only extra thing recommended with a bleach / redevelop type toner, is to re-fix the image after toning, which is not necessary with smelly sulphide. The reason being that the bleach converts part of the silver of the image to silverhalogenide (besides an insoluble silverferro/ferricyanide complex), and that not all of that silverhalogenide may be redeveloped. But actual prove of remaining silverhalogenide, and problems caused by that, I have not seen documented really good up to now.

A nice article by Wilco Oelen discussing some of the chemistry of bleach / redevelop toners is here (although it concentrates on an uncommon vanadium toner, it does discuss other stuff as well and discusses the general concepts):

http://www.woelen.nl/photo/toner.pdf

More info about toners here on his page:
http://81.207.88.128/science/photo/index.html

And a small discussion about the different types of sulfide toners:
http://81.207.88.128/science/photo/toners/sulfide.html

And a discussion about the chemistry of developers:
http://81.207.88.128/science/photo/developers/index.html

Marco

darkosaric said:

Is this valid also for steps in bromoil process

Click to expand...

Yes, see the video in this thread. The bleaching step is not much different than for a toning:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Marco

Marco B said:

Yes, see the video in this thread. The bleaching step is not much different than for a toning:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Marco

Click to expand...

Thanks for all this information. Very interesting. I use the polysulfide toners for direct toning as it is very simple but effective.

You can wash prints until the cows come home and they will not get clear of fix like you can do hypo clear.
So yes it is necessary.

Regarding selenium toning. Do it with a 15 sec rinse after fix when you print or go through the entire archival wash sequence, tone, and repeat the archival wash sequence. Prints will not stain with large amounts of fix, but they stain badly if there are small amounts left. Selenium has some fix in it.

Set up your tone bath under a light and have a correctly toned print right next to it. Your memory is a poor judge of tone color until you have been doing this for a very long time. Pull it early in case it tones in the wash . You can always go back and add some more tone. The process can not be reversed.

Ronald Moravec said:

Regarding selenium toning. Do it with a 15 sec rinse after fix when you print or go through the entire archival wash sequence, tone, and repeat the archival wash sequence. Prints will not stain with large amounts of fix, but they stain badly if there are small amounts left. Selenium has some fix in it.

Click to expand...

I agree, but a 10-minute wash achieves the desired effect. A full archival wash is not necessary prior to selenium toning. With direct sulfide toning, no hypo clear and a 30-minute wash is recommended.

Mold Your Work Flow and Methods to Fit

Hamster said:

So these are my barrier to toning process:
Lack of space (for trays, washer)
Poor ventilation ...
Chemical storage

Click to expand...

Cramped quarters were also my problem. I considered
rotary, and slot processing but ended up adopting the
single tray method in conjunction with very dilute
one-shot chemistry.

Home brewing your processing chemistry will go
a long way towards reducing the amount of space
needed for storage. Using it one-shot means
no left overs need be rebottled or stored.

Counter poor ventilation in the darkroom by
adoption of odorless fumeless brews. Dan

Marco B said:

Yes, see the video in this thread. The bleaching step is not much different than for a toning:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Marco

Click to expand...

thank you !