Toner question...

Dwayne Martin · Mar 23, 2016

Hi all, I was wondering if anyone is using toner on negatives? If so is it strictly for archival purposes or can it darken the shadows a bit or increase contrast?
Thanks in advance....
D

David Allen · Mar 24, 2016

Using a strong Selenium toner on your negatives will give you between 0.5 - 1 grade increase in contrast depending on how well exposed the negatives were in the first place.

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

RalphLambrecht · Mar 24, 2016

Snowball Earth said:
Hi all, I was wondering if anyone is using toner on negatives? If so is it strictly for archival purposes or can it darken the shadows a bit or increase contrast?
Thanks in advance....
D

You can use mild and brief polysulphide toning to increase archivl stability without significabtly effecting negative tonality and selenium toning can be used to increase contrast and highlight densities

MartinP · Mar 24, 2016

There is also chromium intensifier, which is specifically for increasing density rather than permanence and apparently works proportionately to the amount of silver in each part of the neg. Having never used it, I will let an expert comment but it is at least vaguely doing what you asked about.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 24, 2016

Using a sulfide toner will increase the density of an under-exposed negative more than a selenium toner. It will also produce better archival stability.

Jim Noel · Mar 24, 2016

MartinP said:
There is also chromium intensifier, which is specifically for increasing density rather than permanence and apparently works proportionately to the amount of silver in each part of the neg. Having never used it, I will let an expert comment but it is at least vaguely doing what you asked about.

Chromium Intensifier has not been available for many years. It was an extremely hazardous product .

adelorenzo · Mar 24, 2016

Jim Noel said:
Chromium Intensifier has not been available for many years. It was an extremely hazardous product .

Chromium intensifier is available from Photographer's Formulary.

I've used an intensifier for negatives that was based on silver nitrate. It was in the Darkroom Cookbook I believe it was based on Kodak IN-5.

iandvaag · Mar 24, 2016

If you were to use a sodium sulphide toner on negatives, what would be the dilution for both the ferricyanide bleach and sulphide solutions? Same as for prints?

MartinP · Mar 24, 2016

Jim Noel said:
Chromium Intensifier has not been available for many years. It was an extremely hazardous product .

Products called Chromium Intensifier are certainly still available, and from different manufacturers. Perhaps there was a re-formulation at some point?

Gerald C Koch · Mar 24, 2016

iandvaag said:
If you were to use a sodium sulphide toner on negatives, what would be the dilution for both the ferricyanide bleach and sulphide solutions? Same as for prints?

Treat the negatives as if they were prints. For archival permanence toning should go to completion.

Dwayne Martin · Mar 25, 2016

Thanks everyone, I appreciate it.

Rudeofus · Mar 26, 2016

MartinP said:
Products called Chromium Intensifier are certainly still available, and from different manufacturers. Perhaps there was a re-formulation at some point?

Tech info link on Formulary's page for Chromium Intensifier suggests that these intensifiers haven't changed much.

thefizz · Mar 26, 2016

Snowball Earth said:
Hi all, I was wondering if anyone is using toner on negatives? If so is it strictly for archival purposes or can it darken the shadows a bit or increase contrast?
Thanks in advance....
D

If you wish to darken the shadows use a weak (1% solution) potassium ferricyanide bleach briefly. If you also want to lighten the highlights then follow this with a potassium dichromate bleach such as Fotospeed's CI10. Wash fully between both. As mentioned already, you can also use selenium (1:4 for 3 to 5 minutes) to lighten highlights but to a lesser extent than the dichromate bleach.

charlemagne · Jun 24, 2016

Hello everybody,

I have some old sheet films which were quite underdeveloped at the time. There is some shadow detail, but overall it lacks contrast. I know it is possible to intensify film, and after a search on the net i found a video on youtube where somebody kindly explains how to intensify film with selenium toner. (Can be found here: )
Since I have a bottle of kodak rapid selenium toner, i want to give this method a try and intensify some 4x5" negs.

But, i have some questions about the procedure of intensifying negatives with selenium:
- i have always used a hardening fixer for my b&w negatives. Is this a problem when i want to intensify them? Or can i just presoak, then fix in plain hypo and then start toning?
- In the video the selenium toner is mixed up with hca. The man says it is to create an alkaline environment. Is this really necessary? I have never done that when toning prints...

Thanks in advance

(P.s. Instead of starting a new thread, i thought it would be convenient to post my question here. Sorry if somebody thinks i hijacked his/her thread.)

baachitraka · Jun 24, 2016

Please do not destroy the negatives. Rather wash it really good for archival purpose.

Magic should come from darkroom printer and the paper.

Frank53 · Jun 24, 2016

charlemagne said:
Hello everybody,

I have some old sheet films which were quite underdeveloped at the time. There is some shadow detail, but overall it lacks contrast. I know it is possible to intensify film, and after a search on the net i found a video on youtube where somebody kindly explains how to intensify film with selenium toner. (Can be found here: )
Since I have a bottle of kodak rapid selenium toner, i want to give this method a try and intensify some 4x5" negs.

But, i have some questions about the procedure of intensifying negatives with selenium:
- i have always used a hardening fixer for my b&w negatives. Is this a problem when i want to intensify them? Or can i just presoak, then fix in plain hypo and then start toning?
- In the video the selenium toner is mixed up with hca. The man says it is to create an alkaline environment. Is this really necessary? I have never done that when toning prints...

Thanks in advance

(P.s. Instead of starting a new thread, i thought it would be convenient to post my question here. Sorry if somebody thinks i hijacked his/her thread.)

In Tim Rudman's Toning Book is a chapter on this subject.
If you used hardening fixer, you're advised to use a short, non hardening fix first.
If you need more intensefying, you could also use Sulphide toner.
Frank

pdeeh · Jun 24, 2016

remember selenium toning is irreversible.

if you want to try increasing contrast, start with a bleach//redevelop process and see how that goes.
there are many threads on the subject to be found here

charlemagne · Jun 25, 2016

Thanks for your comments so far.

But is it really necessary to mix up selenium toner with hca? Does selenium only work in an alkaline environment? I don't think i ever did it when toning prints.

Frank: a sulphide toner, would that be a sepia toner? I have a two bath toner from amaloco (and also an old bottle of kodak poly toner).

Pdeeh: do you know where i can find a step-by-step procedure for the bleach/redevelop process? I searched for it here on apug but couldn't really find it.

pdeeh · Jun 25, 2016

There are lots of threads on the subject, use the "google results" in the APUG search.
There are also a number of variations on the process, hence you will get a number of different ways of doing it.
Here's an example: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

In essence, you first "bleach" the negative using a rehalogenating bleach - this turns the existing developed silver back to a silver halide. Then you redevelop using (often) a staining developer based on catechol or pyrogallol.
The rehal bleach is often Potassium ferricyanide and Potassium bromide in solution together.
The process can be repeated on the same negative a few times.

Intensifiers work using different bleaches, the most common being Potassium dichromate and Hydrochloric acid.
There have been other intensifiers used in the past but most are uncommon now due to the toxicity of the materials involved - uranium, lead and mercury for instance.

If you want to know how intensifiers differ, you'll have to hope a proper chemist like Gerald Koch or PE can come along and explain.

You can't entirely rescue a grossly underdeveloped negative, you can just improve things a bit. It's not a (hate the phrase, but it's apposite) magic bullet.

charlemagne · Jul 7, 2017

I finally made a test with selenium toning. It's what I have in my darkroom and I couldn't resist to experiment with this first.

I basically followed the process as mentioned in the video, except for the selenium-hca-bath, in which I treated the film for 8 minutes.
I tested with Tmax 100 (the old version) and Adox CHS 100, both 4x5" sheet film.

First impresions: I did not really get the highlight punch (the blacks on the negative) I was hoping for, but the selenium indeed does increase overall density. To my eye the the Adox is more susceptible to the treatment (1 stop) than the Tmax (2/3 stop).
I have not made a print yet, but I think it will be less hassle to get it right with these intensified negatives.

I will try the bleach-and-redevelop-process for really underdeveloped/underexposed films in the near future.

Thank you all for the comments.

waterpump · Jul 23, 2017

For extreme intensification of silver B&W films and (RC) prints use lead sulphide toning, followed by selenium (for stability), this is seriously extreme. And Beware Beware of lead toxicity. Latex / Nitrile Gloves at all times and dispose of waste through a chemical disposal agency NOT down the sink or drain! Lead toning (lead sulphide) on its own is unstable and oxidises to white lead sulphate, hence fades. Selenium toning after lead produces lead selenosulphide, which is far more stable. I have examples of lead / selenium toning of RC prints if anyone is interested.

Bill Burk · Jul 23, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
Treat the negatives as if they were prints. For archival permanence toning should go to completion.

I've read recently here that if you do not bleach the silver negative, you create an insurance negative with toner

Toner question...

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