• Welcome to Photrio!
    Registration is fast and free. Join today to unlock search, see fewer ads, and access all forum features.
    Click here to sign up

Toner for subtle warm effect

BetterSense

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 16, 2008
Messages
3,151
Location
North Caroli
Format
35mm
I have an RC print that has an unattractive greenness to it. I'm not sure if it's the CFL lighting, the frame it's in, or what, but it doesn't look nice in a portrait. I want to make it look a touch warmer without reprinting it on warmtone paper, of which I have none.

My local store has "Berg RC sepia toner", but I'm not sure if I can achieve a subtle warm effect with that, or if it's going to look like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid. It says it lasts 6 months after opening. They also have a 1L bottle of Kodak selenium toner, which says you can mix it up strongly for a "tone change" or weakly for "image permanance and Dmax improvement".

Basically, for a "first toner", for putting slight warm tones on RC paper, would it be better to get sepia toner or selenium toner?
 
I would try selenium toner first. I use it at 1+9 and most RC papers respond quite quickly. If all you want to do is remove the greenish tinge a couple of minutes should be enough.

If you want to try sepia toner, I would start with the first (bleach) bath more dilute than suggested (1:19 rather than 1:9) and bleach until the highlights just start to fade. Use the second (toner) bath at recommended strength for the recommended time. If the result doesn't suit repeat the process.

It's worth having a few prints to experiment with first, though!

Enjoy!

Rob
 
BetterSense said:
...Basically, for a "first toner", for putting slight warm tones on RC paper, would it be better to get sepia toner or selenium toner?
Click to expand...

Neither.
What you are describing is exactly why and how I tone. I like a mild warming effect for my portraits and nudes. It's so slight that you sometimes need a toned and untoned print next to each other to see the difference.

I get this effect with direct sulfide toning (Kodak Brown Toner, or Agfa Viradon). I tone at ambient for just a couple of minutes. Stop toning before the effect becomes visible, because there is some after-toning in the wash (more so with FB). If you like, you can still follow this up with selenium toning, which gives an interesting (mild) split-toning effect with warm highlights and cold shadows.
 
So, so far my options are selenium toning (subtle effect, supposedly more archival?), sepia toning (2-bath) and sulfide toning (kodak brown toner). I'm not sure which one of these I should get yet. I suppose I should get all three and try them (fun fun) but my budget and particularly my darkroom space is very limited.
 

If archival is part of the decision, go with bleach-and-redevelop sepia. It's a full toning process, creating stable silver-sulfide, but it is not the mild toning you are after. Direct sulfide is less archival, because it is a partial toning, but it also creates stable silver-sulfide. Partial selenium toning provides the least protection with silver-selenide. Also, selenium has no warming but rather a cooling effect in my opinion. Selenium increases contrast, sepia and sulfide don't.

For aesthetic consideration, try direct sulfide alone or split toning with sulfide and selenium.

If you are looking for something simple, it does not get any easier than selenium toning. Direct sulfide is easy too but smelly. Bleach and redevelop is the hardest of the three, but with a bit of practise, not hard at all.
 
Well, archival isn't usually a big deal to me since I use RC paper and of course we all know that means my prints will all dramatically dissolve in 5 years anyway. I'm more looking at which type of toning to "invest in" initially. I think I will go with the Berg sepia toning kit at my local shop. They don't have brown sulfide toner and if selenium doesn't have a warming effect I definitely don't want that for this particular print.
 
BetterSense said:
... I suppose I should get all three and try them (fun fun) but my budget and particularly my darkroom space is very limited.
Click to expand...

You don't need a darkroom to do toning. Actually, a well lit room is ideal. Even if you do bleach-redevelopment toning, like kodak's sepia toner, it can certainly be done in daylight. A bottle of selenium toner is IMHO essential stuff. You can also make direct sulfide toner with sodium carbonate and liver of sulfur, which should be cheap if you can source it locally. Try finding the formula for Kodak T8 polysulfide toner. In any case, experiment before toning the actual print.
 

As you wish, but bleach-and-redevelop sepia is not 'mild' toning by any stretch of the imagination. It's a full toning process, which changes image tones fairly dramatically. Try it out, and if it is too much, consider direct sulfide toning instead.
 
 
 
pentaxuser said:
...I still have RC prints from my evening class that are now 7 years old without any form of toning and I can't see any difference in them from removing them from the wash.

pentaxuser
Click to expand...

You are comparing what you see now with you saw 7 years ago? Hmmm...
 
I was being semi-sarcastic about the RC paper. I think my prints, even untoned, will last long enough.

I went to the photo store today and bought the 2-bath sepia "RC" kit, and a regular brown toning kit (they had both afterall). I toned the print in question with the one-bath brown toning kit. It is improved and looks much better now. While I was at it I threw some other prints in there to experiment. The effect is very strange. I use glossy RC paper, and with the brown toning, the dense areas of the print lose their gloss, and almost appear to be sticking up out of the surface. This makes for a really crazy looking print to look at with glancing light. I'm not sure if I like it or not yet; on one hand it looks really unique but on the other hand it would blend in better with a matte paper. I had a couple pictures that were just dying for a bit of a warm tone and it really completes them.

I'm still not quite sure why I should ever use the Sepia toning kit rather than the Brown toning kit, which seemed really easy. Maybe it's a "different brown", or maybe the sepia kit is better if you are going for a really strong effect?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You can use sepia toning without the full-on 100% effect. As noted, you can dilute the bleach portion more than directed and/or bleach it for a shorter time than directed...follow that with the sepia portion and you get the effect, just not quite so much.

Selenium toning, depending on paper used, dilution mixed, brand, etc. may or may not give a warming effect. Depending on dilution it may not even be readily apparent, or affect only the darker tones. You just have to see for yourself.

Ralph gives good advice too, but I can't speak to it as I've not used those products.
 
I think you'd be safer with the selenium. Sepia can go too far easily. Selenium looks good and is warmish and is imo harder to get unattractive

I like brown toner. Brown and selenium
I like bleach sepia, too
sepia to me seems very unreliable, though
IOW paper dependent
some papers go nasty orange easily
Most papers react differently to toning
permanency through -subtle- toning seems to be a lie
 
Inconclusive - Questionable

RalphLambrecht said:
Direct sulfide is less archival, because it is a partial toning,
but it also creates stable silver-sulfide.

Partial selenium toning provides the least protection with
silver-selenide.
Click to expand...

AFAIK the issue of Selenium's ability to confer extended
LE is unsettled. It's questionable ability stems from an IPI
report via the Abbey Newsletter. Early positive results were
later to be ascribed to the sulfur content of the selenium toner
of that time. All that working with microfilm; not print paper.

Later the IPI retested Kodak's Rapid Selenium Toner and
found it did not extend so greatly the LE, Life Expectancy.
How well it did do we do not know. One thing we do know
is that a soaking in a 1:9999 dilution of sodium sulfide
will impart great LE to microfilm.

My conclusion: The IPI should receive more in the way
of research grants and be directed to resolve the issue.
What if selenium alone is worse than nothing? I have
non-treated prints from 50 years ago which NO sign
of deterioration; that with no special storage. Dan
 

Brown toner doesn't normally do this. It sounds like calcium deposits. See if you can rub some of it off. Very common with Viradon if not using distilled water. I usually use Selenium as a utility toner to drop the blacks, then brown toner after the print has been washed. Se is much easier to control - but of course not the same.
 
I don't have experience with your 2-bath sepia kit, but I've used the Fotospeed variable sepia (thiourea) to pretty good effect. I'll admit I do find it a bit hard to control, enough so that I was surprised how similar the last two prints I toned turned out (they were RC, neutral-toned paper). I use the solution with the minimum amount of toner added, which is more yellow than sepia. Using very dilute bleach, only bleach for 45 seconds or so. Then use selenium. The warmth is pretty subtle. I worked this process out by asking about the uncontrollability of my bleach/sepia process here a few weeks ago, and receiving great advice from several members including Tim Rudman.
 
Brown toner doesn't normally do this. It sounds like calcium deposits. See if you can rub some of it off. Very common with Viradon if not using distilled water.
Click to expand...

It doesn't rub off, it's just the surface finish of the paper is altered. I used distilled water.
 
hello

Try a easyer approach! just bleach it in ferri and develop in a regular d-72, dektol, neutol, multigrade, pq universal developer, it usually gives me that subtelty effect that toners do sometimes exagerate! it worked well with multicontrast classic and works with fomabrom variant 111.

Rui Lourosa
 
Did anybody ever used the Nelson Gold Toner for this purpose (subtle brown toning)? It's supposed to give good protection as well.

I've used the Berg Brown/Copper toner on MGIV RC. The paper responds well to this toner but the mid tones tend to get a bit too orange for my taste. Next step for me is to try out the Photographers' Formulary polysulfide toner. It's supposedly similar to the Kodak Brown Toner which I can't buy in Canada or get shipped from the US (it's ORMD).

In my experience, Selenium toning does NOT warm up Ilford Multigrade IV RC but actually cools it down. Even at dilution 1+3 there's no warming up like with the warmtone paper. I normally use the Kodak Se toner at 1+9 for 3min 20°C and that neutralizes the slight greenish tone of MGIV and deepens the blacks. I like it.

With respec to the longevity of RC papers. I have 30 year old RC prints that do not look deteriorated to me. For what it's worth, an interesting statement about the longevity of RC paper can be found Dead Link Removed.

Menno
 
One of the images I toned with the berg brown toner I toned a long time, and it became way too orange for my tastes. I only liked it when I toned it just a little bit. If I want more brownness I'll have to give the sepia a try, or a different paper.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register